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Indigenous aspects of the Murray-Darling Basin Issue


Posted on the campaign blog , October 1st, 2008

The Senate inquiry into the Coorong and Lower Lakes is due to report this week, and one thing’s for sure: there aren’t many issues in Australia as complex and important as saving the Murray Darling. This is something we learned ourselves while researching this issue; we received so many emails from our members suggesting we “do something” about the Murray; but it took us many conversations with different stakeholders to formulate our policy asks. Luckily, the timing was great: we launched our campaign the same day as the Wentworth Group of Concerned Scientists released a major new report on the Murray crisis, and were able to draw on this report to make sure our policy asks are based on the latest science.

In other recent Murray campaign news, the Murray River Red Gums are in the national news today. The National Parks Association has accused the NSW government of illegally logging almost 20,000 hectares of Ramsar listed red river gum wetlands. You can read the story from The Australian here and find out more information from The Wilderness Society here and National Parks Association here.

GetUp received the following article regarding Indigenous aspects of the Murray-Darling situation, and with the permission of the Murray Lower Darling Rivers Indigenous Nations (MLDRIN) traditional owners, has decided to publish it here to educate our members about Indigenous perspectives on the Murray.

“There are some 30 autonomous Indigenous Nations within the Murray Darling Basin (MDB), all of whom maintain a connection to Country and have rights and responsibilities to care for Country.

Indigenous Traditional Owners are, and have been since time immemorial, connected and responsible for their lands and waters, and the peoples of each Indigenous Nation obtain and maintain their spiritual and cultural identity, life and livelihood from their lands and waters.

In addition, Traditional Owner groups each have responsibilities and obligations under their Indigenous Law/Lore and Custom to protect, conserve and maintain the environment and the ecosystems in their natural state to ensure the sustainability of the whole environment.

Approximately 70,000 Indigenous peoples live within the Murray Darling Basin, comprising almost 4% of the national Indigenous population.  However, Indigenous peoples in the Basin currently own less than 0.2% of land in the Basin, and have little or no access to water.

The Murray Lower Darling Rivers Indigenous Nations (MLDRIN) is a confederacy of ten Traditional Owner nations in the Lower Murray Darling Basin whose aim is to ‘come together to make collective decisions on our rivers in a respectful and holistic manner’. 

It includes the Wiradjuri, Yorta Yorta, Wamba Wamba, Mutthi Mutthi, Taungurung, Barapa Barapa, Wadi Wadi, Wergaia, Latje Latje and Ngarrindjeri Traditional Owner groups.

MLDRIN has been developing the concept of cultural water flows – which involves water entitlements that are legally and beneficially owned by the Indigenous Traditional Owners and are of a sufficient and adequate quantity and quality to improve the spiritual, cultural, environmental, social and economic conditions of Traditional Owners.

MLDRIN Traditional Owners also have a strong interest in River Red Gum forests, which contain many places of cultural significance such as burials, oven mounds, initiation sites, men’s and women’s places, ceremony grounds, meeting and gathering places.  Along the Murray River, Red Gum forests are particularly important for contemporary cultural practice both because they are accessible and because as islands of remnant vegetation they retain natural resources and features of the cultural landscape that have elsewhere been destroyed.

MLDRIN is seeking the following outcomes for the Murray Darling Basin:

1.    Sufficient water returned to the rivers as soon as possible, amounting to the 4,000 Gigalitres identified by scientists, to ensure a healthy river system.

2.    A share of water for Indigenous peoples to manage for cultural purposes, negotiated using informed consent and good faith processes

3.    A regional assessment of the River Red Gum forests, with proper informed consent processes and Aboriginal ownership/handback-leaseback of new reserve areas wherever sought by Traditional Owner nations”

GetUp will keep you updated on the progress of our Murray Darling campaign as we hear back from the Senate Inquiry.





 


28 comments

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Lavash
October 2nd, 2008

Considering the Living Murray process is really only concerned with an outcome of 55% improvement of the environment then you have to consider that this "cultural water" will be more beneficial.
You would have to consider this allocation as high security water for protection purposes. It's an interesting discussion to have for the future and no doubt there will be many men, women and their dogs against such a thing. In true reality most townships settled on water are the most racist areas I have come across, probably transgenerational transfer.
Hearing the likes of Yorta Yorta poeple talk if Indigenous science is not considered in the "fixing" of the system then it will continue to be "stuffed up" by the experts; I wonder who they are? I love they way they talk about the removal of snags and now there is a MDBC re-snagging program; that's right no one would listen to them. You have to love Australias society of giving people a "fair go". Good Luck may your creators help in every way.

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Mug Punter
October 3rd, 2008

I'm not sure what the situation of the headwaters of the Murray is now, but some of the photo's of the Hume Weir in these photos from early 2007 are shocking.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/suburbanbloke/sets/72157594520887469/

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phildeerhound
October 3rd, 2008

It seems to me that what is often lacking in the concept of accessing aboriginal wisdom in issues such as this is mutual respect for each others culture.

European culture requires, as a prerequisite for respected input into complex matters such as horticulture administration, both a good basic education and a university qualification

It would be very helpful if the indigenous community would respect these cultural eccentricities of white Australia and seek for themselves these same qualifications in order that they both can and will be heard in the right places

It is difficult to explain but I guess the truth is that higher education constitutes a large part of European spirituality and dictates our relationships with each other and the land. Lets get real on a two way respect for each others cultures and get away from romantic noble savage dreams

To qualify a vast number of indigenous people in the requisite areas would take about three to five years - not long when you have a history of forty thousand

As usual education is the key! We need to promote indigenous education and raise educational standards in all communities around Australia

Currently the educational level of many leaving school is a national disgrace

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macroscope
October 23rd, 2008

Aboriginal people have their own higher education experiences within their culture - developed & tried & tested over 60 000 years. This is why two-way learning is much better - instead of the colonising ways, assimilating ways, and Western controlling ways - which are too much a one-way, only way (stifling world view), driven by the need for economic gain, economic gain, economic gain.

Europoean Australians(ie THE NOBLE WHITE COLONISERS with their noble environmental & economic legacy), need to step away from market forces dictating their head space & emotions - and look at what has worked for people in the Murry Darling for thousands of years.

What is the point of being here, as individuals & communities, if we don't live in a way that leaves the Murray Darling & Australia, a better place - with its natural heritage & biodiversity, intact & healthier.

Just as 'phildeerhound' needs educating so does the rest of non-Aboriginal Australia. phildeerhound is educated one way - but lacking education in many other ways. Aboriginal people have the connection, the way and the best track record in land, water & biodiversity management. Non-Aboriginal Australia can't claim this.
Written by a European Australian - taking on education in different ways.

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Lee
October 6th, 2008

Yes education is important but from what you are saying it comes across one way only. The world as you veiw it is exploitive with one idealism. Non-idigenous own the land, first peoples belong to and come from the land. In terms of economics Europeans view is People, economy, environment. From a first peoples point it is environment, economy, people. One creates the other for people to sustain life and environment. From what Lavash has said educated people made the decision to remove snags from the river without considering the consequences now they are spending millions to put them back, how smart is that? I'm happy with my romantic noble savage dreams of a culture finally showing some respect to another. Contrition is a good word.

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phildeerhound
October 8th, 2008

Genetic research has revealed in recent years that the genetic code of all human beings is almost identical. The differences between us hardly constitute the real existence of the divisions that have been labelled “race”

In fact “race” is the most “racist” of all concepts – it simply doesn’t exist. The differences of skin colour, eyesocket shape etc are very minor indeed.

On this basis if any of us are “of the land” then we all are. The noble savage dream is just another “white man’s invention”. It is often clung to by those who recognise the cultural collapse of Western religious concepts and seek to fill the resulting vacuum with a dream of innocence and harmony that has no real historical basis

It also reflects a lack of knowledge of personal history. As Huguenots on one side and Irish Catholics on the other, my family history is just as much one of dispossession as that of any aboriginal. White people emigrated to this land, in many cases, as a side effect of their own dispossession.

If we are to move forward – here, the Middle East, the Americas, Africa, Asia, anywhere - then we have to get over this belief that it can all be solved by adopting a particular attitude to history and then “rectifying” it.

True reconciliation requires respect for the past and for each other’s cultures, understanding them, but above all moving forward. That requires education above all.

But people are lazy. If there is a choice between putting matters to right that means hard work and intellectual development, or adopting an easy going new mythology (however sloppy and ill founded or constructed) then they all too often will adopt the latter and true reconciliation goes by the board

No-one ever really lived “in harmony with the land” no-one ever really developed a “genuine spiritual relationship with the land” – it is all mythology. This harmony and spiritual relationship belongs to the future and not the past – It is what we should be striving for in the interests of our children, not worshipping in an imagined past – especially in the imagined past of another persons culture.

The “noble savage in harmony with the land” is a concept that has served its purpose. It has helped us to get together. Now we have to move on

I want to see indigenous people reaching the same heights as all people worldwide. Genetics says this should be so, for we are all in fact one people that eons ago probably came out of Africa. We are all migrants and dispossessed people. We are all transplanted from our ultimate heritage, all oppressed by distortions of outdated and dysfunctional religions and mythologies

In the issue of the Murray Darling Rivers – in all such environmental matters - the key to success lies in looking forward, using both past experience of the land and present scientific knowledge to achieve sustainability for a population far higher than the past environment nourished. Forget the dreams that an “indigenous wisdom” can solve our modern problems – it can’t

We all have to grow up sometime. I am merely saying “why don’t we all do it together” – “Black and white together, we shall overcome”

That’s my dream –Venceremos!

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macroscope
October 23rd, 2008

It appears to me that there is a little northern hemisphere supremacy and the colonial victor poking through Venceremos' world view. Venceremos hasn't described his/her experiences & times living with Aboriginal people. If Venceremos doesn't have any of these experiences, then Venceremos doesn't have any qualifications or basis to compare world views.

Talking about genetic sameness doesn't explain cultural differences or cultural practices. Western science hasn't been able to produce 60,000 of continuous, sustainable living - Aboriginal culture has. Don't talk about science being the ultimate without refering to those Scientists who are engaged in two-way learning with Aboriginal people & practicing or re-introducing Aboriginal technology for land & water management.

The Murry-Darling was doing great until 200 years ago, when the economics of colonialism, hand in hand with science, gave us what we have today. And before 200 years ago, hello hello, it was being carefully managed by Aboriginal people.

Archaeology is a science as well & they do not generally dismiss Aboriginal land management technology as does Venceremos. And by the way, a scientist wrote this reply.

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honest john
December 7th, 2008

to macroscope
please be careful what you say to phildeerhound and his ilk.
these maggots have exploited good information given from elders in the past to the detriment of present day peoples

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Stevemuthi72
October 12th, 2008

the dream of black and white living together must be based on respect and acknowledgement. one of the great failures of colonialism is its ommission of other world views, knowledge systems and sciences. for indigenous peoples in the murray darling basin and the world over the lack of space for indigenous voices in the water debate is systemic and deliberate - another way of rendering our existance to the periphery.
arguments of genetics, eugenics etc are masked in western science but they are just as much a colonial process as any other and only serve as attempt to silence other perspectives.
thank you for continuing that great colonial tradition. i wish your analysis of indigenous exploitation of the land was applied to the impact of industrialisation and colonialism in last short 250 years - it might be more revelationary.

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phildeerhound
October 14th, 2008

Acknowledgement of what, Stevemulthi? Are we talking of acknowledgement of the fact that my family on my mother’s side came from England’s first colony, that being Ireland?

I may be both white and European, but I am neither an imperialist nor a colonist and nor is the history of my family of that kind. In fact with Huguenots on one side, and Catholic Irish on the other, my family were first dispossessed some two hundred years before any aboriginal, and that despite the fact that both my parents and myself were all born in England

I’m sorry but the history that is sometimes used in propaganda relating to reconciliation, is all too often a concoction of falsehood that is used to serve an honourable cause. But the service of an honourable cause does not make it more representative of truth, and as we thankfully seek to progress beyond the long awaited apology, that has commenced the further path of reconciliation, we need to recognise that fact

Our genetic sameness is a fact of life that defies all the nonsense of racism. It brings home to us the fact that our divisions are cultural and historical, and as such we need to honour each others cultures on the one hand, and correct our understanding of history on the other. That means all of us!

All groups have contributed to what we know as modern civilisation, both to the good and to the bad. No culture is universally innocent or universally guilty. No descendant is responsible for the sins of his ancestors. He is not guilty of the dispossessions of the past – he can only be guilty of an unwillingness to share that he demonstrates in the present

The problems of our environment give us an unprecedented opportunity to work together and to share, in the interests of the planet, “the Land”, from which we all come, and in the interests of humanity as a whole. But to do this we need to overcome our mythologies

We all have historical myths – not least those of us from Europe. The myths may talk to me of “racial superiority” and “deservedly dominant cultures” but I don’t have to believe them. I can break free – and I have in my own life. Whether or not it is too much to ask others to do the same – that is what I am asking for. I am frankly not prepared to be told that I am “continuing that great colonial tradition” without pointing out that through the feudal and class system my family, and the family of most white people, have endured that “colonisation” in another form, for well over a thousand years, and not the two hundred years indigenous peoples have had to suffer.

The same “diseases” visited my ancestors several times in the form of the Great Plague and the Black Death, sometimes they killed half the population wiping out whole villages. My ancestors too were deprived of the right to own land and were evicted from “common land” centuries before the same processes occurred in Australia

So whilst I can sympathise, in all honesty I cannot feel guilty. Reconciliation for me is not about absolution from a misdirected and unjustly targeted guilt, but about working together for all our children, that they are brought up in a better world. So let’s all get on with fixing that river!

I believe Joseph Campbell best describes the process we are going through as follows. “There are now no more horizons. And with the dissolution of horizons we have experienced and are experiencing collisions, terrific collisions, not only of peoples but also of their mythologies. It is as when dividing panels are withdrawn from between chambers of very hot and very cold airs: there is a rush of these forces together…. That is just what we are experiencing; and we are riding it: riding it to a new age, a new birth, a totally new condition of mankind - to which no one anywhere alive today can say that he has the key, the answer, the prophecy, to its dawn. Nor is there anyone to condemn here… What is occurring is completely natural, as are its pains, confusions, and mistakes."

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Tim
October 14th, 2008

I have heard no reports of what the flow of the murray would be with no human intervention with this dry spell. My GUESS would be that it would be dry, on that ASSUMTION that weare interfering with nature something that greenies hate. So let us redo the sums to what it should be with public scrutiny less the do gooders and see what our base mark is. than make some informed decisions. On the note of rivers, at the moment our township of Dysart (Central QLD) is drinking extremly polluted water due the EPA authorising a mine to pump a flooded pit back into the Nogga river which inturn feeds our drinking water. So the government system works well huh, paying a fortune for bottle water that I paid top dollar rates for is great, maybe something the getup team can look nto if there so keep on the environment.

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First Priority !
October 21st, 2008

Don't call me australian...don't call me aborigine
The Right of Conquest is a Mythical Beast
australia is a State of Lies Theft and Genocide
The Soil is Poisoned...the Land is Cursed
the Blood of My People they Cry from the Earth
The Sky has Fallen...the Bubble has Burst
we need australian values
like we need a Hole in the Ozone Layer

…"Land in the Emptiness and Emptiness in the Land"…

The State of Terra Nullius is the Great Legal Black Hole of Null and Void. A State of Dissolve and Dissolution. A Dehydrator and Vacuum State. Like a magic wand the British Crown waved the Union Jack across the land and a
whole island continent, including all its contents, Legally disappeared off the face of the earth.
In a simultaneous effect, the first three ingredients to the Australian Constitution was firmly laid in
the foundation of January 26 1788 when a second State of Lies, Theft and Genocide was also created.
A Lie because the land was not void of human occupation. A Theft when the land was claimed as
a Legal Possession by and for the British Crown and an act of Mass Genocide when the land and all
human life, animals and plant life, insect and all microscopic life was placed in The State of Terra Nullius.
Two very Extreme and Volatile States which is in fact a Double Dissolution.
These Legal States must and will become a Literal State.
A Legal and Literal State of Destruction and Desolation.

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sandra grealish
October 21st, 2008

the murray darling is a national disgrace, why should carpetbaggers in the shape of UK companies , buy up land then claim Australian taxpayers money to buy back water rights? The Q / land government , should be held accountable by the rest of the nation, and theQ/land water minister should be sacked immediatly. It is clear that he is only interested in making fast bucks for the irrigators. Likewiswe NSW have a lot to answer for.Also Penny Wong did not seem to have a clue about what she was talking about, no credibility , she should be relpaced by someone who has a commitment to making this work , for all our sakes.

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Beemja
October 21st, 2008

If only we had listened to the original custodians in the first place.

There is definitely a message in the fact of this area receiving the least or no rain when other places are receiving rain. LISTEN ONE AND ALL to the Traditional Custodians....so much of what they nurtured has been taken away and luckily contrary to many forms of genocidal actions up to and including recent times they have survived and are as willing to take Proppa Care as ever if we stop trying to assimilate as we do. We are either Unifying or Dying and Civilisation is anything but civil. To quote Sveiby from Treading Lightly (a Professor of business knowledge) the systems, humanity and business and societal structures the Aboriginals had in place when White Man arrived "The Industrialised world is Primitive by comparison to" When we show the respect to those who do Know the Country and don;t just Love it or Ruin it, then we will maintain the greatness of it for all. LISTEN TO THEM and LET THEM CARE FOR COUNTRY...

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Miligurnditj-tjali
October 22nd, 2008

Yes, all those Miligurnditj (Murray River clans)have had their river close to destroyed by the "newbies" from Europe who understood nothing about this country. From Cowambat (Walgalu country) to the Coorong (Ngarrinjerri country)..too much cattle grazing,too much timber getting, too many irrigation farms.
One simple first step - more water in the river. Just that for a start.
The sooner the better, no waiting!

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Beemja
October 22nd, 2008

Exactly more water in the river and ensure at the same time it doesn't take til a Sorry State again to remove what is ruining it, mainly Greed...their is more to the economic meltdown happening globally than just currency....

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phildeerhound
October 22nd, 2008

Again the white man myths of the “ideal indigenous society in harmony with the land” surface as supposed arguments about how to deal with a modern crisis

There is no evidence that indigenous people ever “managed” the land in the sense that wistful idealists would have it be. It would seem rather that the strain placed on the land was limited by a shorter lifespan, a poverty stricken lifestyle, and an appalling mortality rate. The societies were often kept in a stable state through a system of tribal payback, elders enforced superstition, and even murder.

It is no good looking to the indigenous past in order to find solutions to the post colonial present – not unless you propose a lower population level and have the policy means to bring it about

Wannabe Environmentalists carry out two actions that constantly bring the environmental movement into disrepute. One is to prance around like little children in badly made animal suits. The other is to relate every problem to some imagined dreamtime solution and an attitude of targeted blame, similar to the Orwellian one in which two legs are bad and four legs good

A couple of days ago I was chatting about these matters to an Irish friend, himself not unsympathetic to aboriginal and environmental causes

His comment was “as soon as they start on about how downtrodden they have been by the white man, I just say to them ‘I don’t know what you are complaining about, you’ve only had to put up with the bastards for two hundred years, try putting up with them for eight hundred as my people have had to’”

The sooner we have more indigenous people attaining the highest educational levels and qualifications the better. I hope I live to see the day when an indigenous nuclear scientist, brain surgeon, climatologist or fighter test pilot talks some sense into the didgeridoo-blowing and frequently stoned white hangers-on who bring aboriginal causes into disrepute

Learn about the culture and study the history properly, not just from the propagandist’s point of view. And then let’s all grow up and move on. The modern Murray Darling needs proper scientific management and Federal action

Do we believe in climate change or don’t we? If we do then we have to accept that indigenous Australia, in its entire history, NEVER faced the problems we face today

That being the case then accept please that they do not have the solution either. You cannot have your propaganda cake and eat it too and attempts to do so only make the perpetrator look silly

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macroscope
October 23rd, 2008

phildeerhound, qualify yourself, have you lived and worked with Aboriginal people or are you an armchair critic throwing out these 'worldly observations'.

Are you even educated in science? A first year uni student would be failed for writing as you do. It signifies a lack of critical thinking, research and experience.

Aboriginal land management practices are in use today -throughout parts of Australia. Science wouldn't know what it knows today without the Aboriginal guides to guide the botanists & biologists - to show them the way & to help feed them & give them first aid, among many other things.

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Beemja
October 23rd, 2008

Thankyou macroscope for noting what you are far more qualified to comment on than some critics here obviously regards the Masters of the Land, it is what I don't have the time to explain from a non-scientist viewpoint, however maybe when we go back to a lot of other Aboriginal land management ways we will again have fish in the waterholes, native animals abounding and even millet where sheep can't even be farmed anymore, the very animals that Aboriginals were hunted down and killed for daring to catch and eat since the land they ran on was stolen from them and is now being destroyed I predict ahead of the race the colonisers were trying to destroy and wipe out if we don't start seriously engaging in proper ways with that very race. phildeerhound the capital punishment that you call murder in a scorning way was actually being still performed by the colonisers until not that long ago...I suggest there is a lot of actual everday history of Aboriginal land both pre and post colonisation you have an academic only view of, especially since the "winners" write the history books, try watching The First Australians on SBS Sundays and Tuesdays to catch up a little on the things the more aware have been very aware of....Aboriginal people have not returned the violence literally as unlike most they are very aware of Universal Law and don't intend destroying other peoples vehicles and that understanding will in the long term hold them at one with and saving the land and themselves toward eternity while the perpatrators (especially those who still continue to denounce them either through direct or veiled racism)will be wishing they had learned the two-way style sooner....

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Beemja
October 22nd, 2008

I have strong history of pre and early colonised Australia.

WHY are we trying to over-populate a Barron country anyway?

There are going to be a whole lot of thirsty people...

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honest john
December 7th, 2008

phildeerhound
your ignorant view of indigenous culture would justify a whistle-cocking

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Murray lover
October 24th, 2008

Thank you MLDRIN. Please show us the way - all considerations would benefit by taking into account the spiritual, cultural, environmental, social and economic values of the river and its waters for the life of this land and life in it. As a living ecosystem we can't just throw dice for our own needs without diminishing the all.

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phildeerhound
October 25th, 2008

Murray lover - A river does not of itself have a spiritual, cultural or economic value. These are demands that are artificially placed on it by human society.

Its environmental and social values are finite resources. The difficult with the Murray Darling region is that whilst modern demands have been placed upon it defined by its use to support a vastly larger population than in ancient times, it has not been technologically developed in a manner which makes it possible to cope with these demands

There is no return to the past, because that would require a lessening in the numbers of dependent populations, we can only move forward to proper modern management and development of the available resources and the enhancement of them where possible. For example it is very possible that irrigation methods require complete revision, eliminating open air watering (and therefore certain crops) and largely enclosing foodcrop areas, so that evaporating water can be reclaimed and recycled

We do have a history that can help us. It is the development of Europe’s soils and farmland over the course of some three thousand years. The soils of northern Europe in particular, which have been successfully intensively farmed for generations, are not virgin soils. They have been managed for hundreds, and in some cases thousands of years. They too were once uncleared tribal lands and in some cases, around the Mediterranean the clearances and deforestation were catastrophic in their effects. What is happening here has happened before.

Our problem seems to me to be the old colonial mentality that sees an opportunity and moves in to intensively exploit it without any great allegiance to the environment in which it is found. I think we all agree that those days have to be treated as over. But moving forward means developing our own methodology not seeking some imagined magical solution.

Magical thinking is what has brought us to the brink. In the belief that “God would provide” especially in response to the Protestant ethic of hard work being its own reward, colonial farmers commenced the process of placing impossible demands on the environment without developing its capacity to fulfil those demands. Land was cleared and irrigation channels run locally without any real thought as to the overall accumulative effect of the sum of local projects.

But tribal aborigines themselves also thought locally in terms of their own territories. Our modern situation demands that we think more holistically – of the rivers and the basins as a whole

And that is the overall view that – like it or not – we will only find in a developed modern science and a developed modern agriculture

Put magical thinking to one side and embrace the future. Make the environment our own, build a modern Australian harmonic relationship with the land that we draw from the entire immense culture of all Australians, both indigenous and more recent migrant. If it is to succeed, it will however have to be a scientific one not a religious one

Australian archaeology and geological studies suggest that thousands of years ago there was another migration to Australia that was disastrous for the environment and resulted in loss of species and possible permanent land clearance – in those times through the environmentally disastrous use of fire. That was the aboriginal migration itself

When people migrate into a land changes always occur and management strategies and social structures have to be developed, never more so than now. The reality is that through addressing these problems we are all perhaps finally becoming “Australians”

Dare I suggest that magical thinking that focuses on an imagined or defectively understood past effectively attempts to deny us that right. It will fail. Religious ideologies are almost always disempowering of the people which is why so many are finally wising up and walking away from them

Incidentally I agree that the SBS programme on the First Australians is excellent and urge everyone to watch it

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Sunriser
November 11th, 2008


Interesting debate all.

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Sunriser
November 11th, 2008

Could anyone tell me concretely what the reasons may be as to why the govt has not taken action on this? I am seriously just a simple ignorant person who seems to understand the pros, but not the cons of injecting some water-flow into the murray darling basin? Is it a funding allocation thing? If anyone can contribute I will be grateful. Thanks.

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phildeerhound
November 25th, 2008

Sunriser writes: "Could anyone tell me concretely what the reasons may be as to why the govt has not taken action on this? "

It is a very good question, but my answer to that might not be a popular one. I believe that it is part of an overriding Australian problem. Our cultural level is simply too low for us to have the emotional tools required to treasure our country so we trash it or allow others to do it in our name.

Inability to cope with just how low Australia's cultural level is drives many of our best minds overseas. We have not really got far beyond the gold rush days where vast numbers of impoverished miners wrecked whole areas of landscape, in the vain search for get rich quick gold. They dug one hole and then moved on, digging another, and leaving a scarred environment in their wake

People really do not care about this country, that is its greatest tragedy. They rape and exploit the land they should nurture, or drift into childish imagined dreamtimes of noble savagery with a pretended virtue which they utilise to look down on their fellows.

For people to care they need a proper cultural base, and that is something that has been recognised since the days of Ancient Greece and Rome, and of the Italian city states, as being a vital element in society requiring vast state patronage. Without it a whole nation, empire, society, implodes into chaos. That is what we are witnessing now - and then the silly superficial superstitions like Hillsong get a hold and make the disintegration permanent

Our Capital cities have totally inadequate artistic and performance capabilities. Abysmal funding levels result in some of the highest prices for admission to cultural events to be found anywhere in the world. The history we teach at schools is largely crap and there is precious little effort or money expended in creating future educated and appreciative audiences, or even parents with the intellectual capacity to mentally sustain and nurture their children

So what if the Murray Darling goes bung?. It will only create a physical desert out of part of what is already a cultural wasteland. And the people can move on - like the aborigines did - to slash and burn somewhere else

If you want a sustainable Australia then you must feed it - intellectually and culturally as well as physically. That means the standards of our broadcasting - which are easily controllable through licensing and through the activities of our national broadcasters must be raised as part of this

But what has happened there is symptomatic of what has happened to the Murray Darling Basin. The commercial channels are a wasteland of drivel and infotainment. The ABC's budget under a largely malignant board has been slashed to nothing. The SBS has been vandalised

There are beacons of hope in all this, an obvious one being the NSW art gallery, which endeavours to bring high quality visual art more into the peoples domain. But the true necessary effort required is colossal

If Australia ever really crawled out of the early nineteenth century pit - then it has been dumbed down - and deliberately so in many cases - since.

Problems such as the Murray river require an educated, caring and land treasuring population

But what does even the Left offer on this, other than a myth that an indigenous culture that has sadly mostly gone - we fantasise about its remnants - once had a spiritual link with the land that we do not have

Rubbish - the problem is not the past relationship of indigenous peoples with their land, whatever it may truly have been like. It is our PRESENT spiritual and cultural relationship with the land that is the problem.

And that is the problem we must focus on and deal with. We have yet to create an Australian identity that is truly of our land and till we do we will continue to destroy it.

We will not find that spiritual link in dreams of a blissful tribalism that never really existed. Nor will we find it by enforcing one Eurocentric culture on all others. We will find it by learning to recreate ourselves mentally, physically, spiritually, politically, intellectually economically and culturally as 21st century Australians.

Build the theatres , concert Halls ,entertainment centres, museums, galleries, universities and technical colleges. Stop being paranoid and build nuclear reactors to provide energy to drive a modern prosperous and lively society.
Till then our best minds - scientific, economic, and artistic etc - will continue to leave for London, and Paris, and Venice, Florence, Berlin, Los Angeles and New York

Anywhere in fact but here.

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The Patrician
November 25th, 2008

Now that water is finally front an centre in the National consciousness, we need to take ALL available steps to solve the storage and ditribution issues.

1. The Murray was pretty much bone dry in the 30's - go to Mildura/Swan Hill and see the photoes of paddle steamers sitting in a dry river bed. It came back again as it will this time. The drought will end in 2010 and the cycle will go on. The issue is how we manage the good times so that we are ready for the next big dry.
2. The Vic govt. decision not to dam the Mitchell looks increasingly plain stupid and the second flood in 6 months sweeps down. We don't have a no dams policy otherwise we would shut down the ones we have. We have a no more dams policy which must be revisited, build the Mitchell dam and complete the system.
3. The Northern pipelin is a total waste of money. Like our freeway are the shortest distance between 2 traffic jams, the pipeline will be a road between 2 dry spots. When there is water to run down it, it won't be needed in Melb.
4. Water tanks should be encouraged and subsidised but we do need to carefull we don't create a mosquito breeding ground.
5. We are dealing with climate shift rather than climate change. Remember up until the 90s, Melb always got Perth's weather via Adelaide. Now we don't. It will shift back again as it has in the past. All decisions need to be made on the basis that conditions WILL change and change back again. The same amount of rain falls but instead of hitting Aust in lands in the ocean. Look at a map and we are about 1% of the ocean mass surrounding us. We are lucky any rain hits us.
6. In 1984 I dug a 1 metre hole in the back yard and it filled with water overnight in the middle of summer. In 2002 I dug a hole 3 metres deep in the same backyard with no seepage whatsoever. Obviously the water table had dropped considerably. It will only be restored with steady rain, which will come in 2010 according to Inigo Jones.
Recommend Peter Andrews book Back from Brink to see how to farm and water conserve dry Australia successfully. Should be on all schools compulsory text book list. May not have all the answers but it goes a long way down a sustainable and sensible path.
Lets have a crack at a long term best practise instead of these short term "solutions".

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phildeerhound
November 25th, 2008

Patrician recommends Peter Andrews book "Back from Brink", to see how to farm and water conserve dry Australia successfully. He adds that it should be on all schools compulsory text book list. As he says - it may not have all the answers but it goes a long way down a sustainable and sensible path.

I take my hat off to you here, mate - You are spot on there. Schools should pay great attention to it - everyone should.

Peter Andrews is an example of a person descended from the more recent migrants to this land, who came here over the last two hundred years. He has helped to create a new Australian rural culture in which we develop our own relationship with our homeland in our own 21st century Australian way, learning from the past, but learning to move on too.

The power of the Renaissance came from the rebirth of ancient wisdom in a modern context - combined with a deliberate moving forward towards greater enlightenment.

That is what Australia needs, and our people have the entire world to draw their cultural impetus from - the entire world from pole to pole

The Renaissance took place because thinking people said it is time for our civilisation to be reborn, time for an all embracing revolution in society from painting and sculpture and music and technology to agriculture economics and politics

Lets do it again! - Here in Australia


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