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Colin Jacobs: Filtering at Odds with Broadband Revolution.


Posted on the campaign blog , November 4th, 2008

Colin Jacobs is a spokesman for Electronic Frontiers Australia

The Labor Government went to the last election with a plan for "Cyber Safety" - protecting children online. The major component of this scheme involves a "clean feed" Internet, whereby Internet service providers would be obliged to filter out material deemed "inappropriate" for children by the Government. It now appears that the optional clean feed will be joined by a second blacklist, for illegal material, that will be mandatory for all Australians.

Although on the surface filtering out adult or illegal material might seem like a good idea, there are many reasons why this is bad policy. When their Government announces a plan of pervasive technological censorship, Australians are right to demand some explanations to put their minds at ease, and in this case, the explanations fall very short.
Technologically, Internet filtering is a real nightmare. Regardless of the scheme adopted, a slowdown in Internet speeds is inevitable, and the more aggressive the filtering, the slower the network access becomes. The Government's own trials of dynamic filters showed slowdowns on an average of 30% and as high as 76%. No blacklist can ever encompass a fraction of material that would be inappropriate, and dynamic filters inevitably result in massive over-blocking of legitimate content on subjects such as sexual health and drugs. No matter how much taxpayer money is spent, any eventual filter could be circumvented by a determined user. In fact, today the majority of internet traffic is in the form of peer-to-peer applications which could not be filtered in this way. Although very limited filtering has occurred in other democracies, the scope of the Government's plan is much broader and is only comparable to that attempted by repressive regimes around the world.

Before the scheme is in place, pressure is already mounting in Parliament to expand the scope of the mandatory filter to encompass all adult material and other categories such as gambling or anorexia-related sites. It's hard to see how the Government could resist this pressure when bargaining in the senate to get important legislation passed.

At a time when we all acknowledge the importance of Australia's competitiveness in the digital economy, spending tens of millions of dollars to implement a program that would slow network speeds and raise the costs of access seems strange at best. But would the scheme protect children? All signs point to no. Even if the bureaucrats could somehow devise filtering criteria acceptable to all parents, the filters would let too much material through, and would be easy to circumvent. Some parents will be lulled into a false sense of security, thinking the filter would protect their kids from cyber-bullying, theft of personal information, or chat-room creeps, when in fact it would only block access to a broad swathe of web sites.

In short, Government censorship can never be an acceptable substitute for parental discretion.


494 comments

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zietgeistism
October 1st, 2009

EXACTLY this is just another cunning way to take away our rights and freedom of information, speech AND real communication and they have the nerve to tell us its "for our own good to protect us" THE ARROGANCE they assume most people are IMBECILES prove to them we are NOT

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TIm
July 10th, 2009

Nicely written.

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Dash
December 5th, 2008

Here Here!!!

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LVS
November 29th, 2008

You redeemed yourself with that paragraph on "Better Quality Media" up till then I was ready to have the inet spooks etc check you out. Rubbish American shows are much of the cause of the intelligence breakdown...as is too much violent games for undeveloped brains. I takes up to 21 years to develop a brain and then more development is required to reach full potential...some are still achieving at 102 years. So get off that "bingo" referral to "OLD" people. I have had lots to do with many over 90 yr olds and 'bingo" no. Study, write books, work , be healthy/fit and help others.....YES
Many younger parents of to-days kids do not know much about computers anyway.....I won't give my age but I have been working with computer since 1985, but I do not want them to control MY LIFE...They are there to assist me, and I use them wisely.......................enough said

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Mr Han
November 28th, 2008

Phildeerhound, no of course we dont remember Prohibition. Nor the Great Depression. And what was so great about it? Oh well, we'll find out soon enough. As an astute student of humanity you will know that each generation must do it all again, every error. It's our freedom and god-given right to usurp reason and care for others with selfism. Old truths need to be re-named at the end of it, new heroes for resurrected values...etc etc...before the new kids do it all again. Its how we are and have always been, whether in Collaroy Plateau or Mumbai or Minsk. Get used to it and stop complaining. Enjoy the passing parade.

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Funkylikamonkey
November 27th, 2008

I cannot agree more with phildeerhound. This idea is so deeply worrying to me and I would hope anyone with half a brain.

Any control over the flow of information by a government is a bad idea (whether it be against taboo content or otherwise). These people who are pushing for censorship are not only chronically computer illiterate but apparently illiterate . Read Orwell's "Nineteen Eighty Four" and you will see that this sort of behaviour is not only frightening, but predictable. We KNOW for certain that this power will be abused from history and the present (think about modern China, Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia)

To let this legislation through is to deficate on the face of democracy. I am embarassed to be part of a country so seemingly blind.

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david
November 23rd, 2008

This and many of the comments below fail to address adequately the biggest problem with the proposed internet filter. For that reason, they stand to be accused of being "straw man" arguments - arguments at first appealing, but easily demolished by a determined government.
Firstly, the biggest problem: We live in a society where most people believe that we have an honest and open political system that responds to the will of 'the people'. Sadly, more and more (especially under the Howard government) vested interests and big business influence and control our society - by increasing right wing influence in public discourse (especially through lobby groups and the media), by access to government decision making, and by subverting government decision making power to private control (eg 'free trade' agreements).
This problem is easily demonstrated by the lack of public debate about our reasons for going into Iraq - a grand deception easily demonstrated by one document in the public domain, yet never acknowledged in our media - this document shows that the Bush administration was in negotiations with resource corporations around the world, to divide up Iraqs oil - SIX MONTHS BEFORE SEPT 11. (look here: http://www.judicialwatch.org/iraqi-oil-maps.shtml and note the date on the table labeled 'Foreign Suitors for Iraqi OilField contracts part 1' - yes our own BHP is there - presumably doing the bidding of Tigris petroleum - as in the AWB wheatboard scandal. (Note that many Howard ministers had bought shares in the AWB - as reported in the AGE newspaper - after its privatisation by - you guessed it - the Howard government). Howard wrote the terms of reference for the AWB inquiry - Terms of Reference that guaranteed no adverse finding could be made against anyone associated with the Howard government classic government subversion of public debate.
This is the biggest threat from a censored internet - why this is a great threat is demonstrated by one thing - that the list of who/what will be blacklisted will not be available to the public for discussion - Ie complete unaccountability to the public and clearly begging to be used for political/corporate purposes.
This is a much bigger threat than many of the following comments suppose. Whilst it may be easy to subvert the proposed filter in it's present form, no doubt the technology will be refined to block the loopholes. In Australia we already have the most concentrated media ownership in the world, and a corresponding lack of public debate, control of what is publicly debated, and corresponding lack of public awareness. Rupert must be very proud!
Democracy depends on an informed public - if our mainstream media will not do it, we need an uncensored internet!

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Nigel Colhoun
November 4th, 2008

This will be just like China, North Korea and all the repressive regimes around the world. It will slow the internet down. It is just a simplistic stunt for "Family First" and their narrow views. It is far easier, more effective to block at the PC.
This country should be looking towards the future, not clinging on to the past.
Does the Government /Senator Conroy know how the internet works? Probably, not.

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The Rawhide Kid
December 5th, 2008

Would'nt the blocking of the Internet also affect the Governments use of the net?? If so, they will do a re think.

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Nigel Colhoun
November 4th, 2008

This will be just like China, North Korea and all the repressive regimes around the world. It will slow the internet down. It is just a simplistic stunt for "Family First" and their narrow views. It is far easier, more effective to block at the PC.
This country should be looking towards the future, not clinging on to the past.
Does the Government /Senator Conroy know how the internet works? Probably, not.

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tatti
November 27th, 2008

'This will be just like China, North Korea and repressive regimes around the world?'

What UTTER nonsense.

Don't you all know the internet is not already censored? Illegal content that does not abide by Australian laws is ordered to be taken down routinely. This is porn content that has no appropriate mechanism for ensuring participants are over 18. And Child paedophilia content. What is it you all object to?

Personally I am going to look at the testing and see if it DOES slow MY internet down or if it DOES block 1 in 12 sites wrongly because I think a system that does this is not going to move through. If it does, I WILL (probably) oppose it. But as far as listening to EPA single-sided diatribe and spreading rumours and nonsense about the end of democracy and freedom of speech/information rights, no thanks.

As someone who has long been studying issues surrounding internet censorship and, most importantly the impacts of parental and school fears regrading porn, violent materials, paedophilia and other negative internet experiences on the lives of young people in Australia, I am willing to look at this issue with an open mind and with reason.

Why would the government want to censor the internet? Because it made some promises to Family First for other deals? Yes, probably. But why else? Because they want to censor political content like China? NO. Because they want to spy on us like China does its citizens? NO. Because studies show that most young people, many very young, encounter porn and violent porn materials online that upset them? Yes. Because many parents and schools restrict what young people can do online because of these concerns and realities and this creates a sort of second digital divide for young people? Yes. PC filtering will not fix this issue, though this is one partial solution with its own problems.

It is so fashionable to repeat the internet freedom mantra and to not to talk about the rights of the child as well on this issue. I would have hoped for a bit more from GetUp and from the people that support it.

At least look at the recent research done by the government on this issue before talking about an internet that "WILL" be slowed by 87% slower or about 'saving the net'. From what? For who? Who wants to see the content that will be blocked? Or maybe you should at least mention what will be blocked before making stupid comparisons to 'china'.

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Jase
July 20th, 2010

Are you serious? Parents are responsible for their kids, not the govt.

I have no kids in my home, have been an IT infra tech for almost 20yrs and run a few proxys and firewalls, have done for years. Do you think the govt should treat me like some noob kid with no idea? Yes, it is very arrogant to assume all australians are hopeless online and need filtering and protection.

As for 'childs rights', eduction and understanding are the answer. Not hiding and obscuring. Explain the reality, educate and empower - that's how you make a smarter generation.

Just like driving a car, people need to learn how to use the internet. Unfortunately, there are no trainers, no licenses and some parents use interent as baby-sitter. That would perhaps explain your 'traumatic experiences'. thats life, live and learn - learn being the most imporant thing. You can have 'traumatic' experiences off the internet - roadragers spring to mind.

Why filter me like some child? What will be filtered and by whom, and what is their agenda. It's a much bigger picture than 'save the kids'. And to clarify just once more, it should be referred to as: Educate the Kids

The reference to China was more, I believe, in reference to the govt dicatatorship on this. Refusing to listen to advice, logic and society. It's certainly not democratic, logic or thought through.

Then you have the domino effect. Govt makes ISP do extra work, ISP incurs cost, cost past onto end-user. Filtering slows down traffic coz nothing passes directly anymore, each packet must be processed against each said set of rules, there's your slowdown.

Now, scenario, your website gets blocked somehow. How much $$ do you lose? How do you get off some secret list? How long does it take? What about that lost income again - can you get it back, via who, over how long. Impact on your life, your family now being.....traumatic i guess? Even better if your site was hacked, had kid-porn posted on it. Then you get blacklisted (thanks to the govt) and noone is chasing the hacker coz they got you instead.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both. Ben franklin"

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Mk1
December 16th, 2009

So the Government would not want to censor political content or spy on their citizens? What Universe do you inhabit? That is naivete of the highest order! If the list of blocked sites is not available for perusal by the public, this is exactly what will happen....You are a good little drone...

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Tim
July 10th, 2009

Feeling silly yet, now that its clear that the filter will also block games that Nanny doesn't like.

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/games/web-filters-to-censor-video-games-20090625-cxrx.html

But
of course, that's OK because you don't play those nasty games, do you?

And next week, when some blogs are filtered, that won't matter because you don't read those blogs anyway, do you?

But one day...

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kanine
July 5th, 2009

One thing you and many others are missing, is that simply cencoring sites as "harmful to our children" does more harm than good.

The uneducated parent is given false peace of mind, because any teenager quickly finds a way around the system (such as by the use of the many free on-line proxies).

Kids aren't actually being taught any sort of ethics or "what not to do on the internet".

It's also highly unethical when any governing body decides to secretly black-list any site because it offends some-one sensibilities... who gets to decide what's classed as offensive or not??

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workingmum
December 23rd, 2008

""If it does, I WILL (probably) oppose it".

PFF!

Tatti, your post shows very little understanding of this issue, both from a government and techonlogical point of view.

Once they have "tested" this, do you really think they will change back, even if the internet is 87% slower??
HELLO?

If this genie gets out it will not be going back in the bottle, and YES we WILL be like CHINA and NORTH KOREA. you really have NO idea what you are talking about.

I am a very moderate person, with children, but I am also a realist. Child services is so poor they are not managing to visit children in need before they DIE of NEGLECT, and they are spending money on THIS?

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MJR
December 10th, 2008

The defining quality of the right wing mind - no imagination.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

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Dave
December 5th, 2008

IF the goverment is doing this purely to protect children and not keep us as mushrooms to what else is going on in goverment etc.They could do a whole lot with this money,protecting children in the real world, where judges,courts and our laws let them down consisitently. From my own obsevation it seems that anyone who commits a crime against a child will get a lower sentence than if it was against an adult.I Know i am generalising a lot in my argument here but I beleive many would support this. I personaly see this as an attack on free speech.Maybe Im wrong and its just some Knee jerk reaction to child porn etc

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mekong
December 2nd, 2008

Remember porn has always been with us. Some of the world's oldest art depicts people having it off. sexual voyerism is hard wired as a way of keeping the species kicking along.. maybe too successfully. Recently many Muslim women in Indonesia protested against the anti pornography law as they wanted access to porn as an adjunct to a healthy sex life.
Magazines of varying hue and fetish used to sit in newsagents for years and still do in many countries, without producing a generation of depraved individuals.
We are increasingly obsessed with social control out of some nefarious need for 'safety;. While risk becomes commodified: you can buy a knee trembling experience now (jet boats bungees etc) rather than having one in the wild. Kids grow up without climbing terres. How deviant is that?
The recent hoo haa over Hensens photographs was cause for a great giggle in the rest of the world. Ban cherubs in renaissance paintings next?


The tsunami of Grundyism/neo puritanism has many historical precedents as do periods of libetarianism. as the Thais would say same same..Australians simply do not have enough to do.. or have to invent things to worry about as a substitute for a really exciting, risky and libidinous life

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Mr Han
November 28th, 2008

TATTI! So well said. Thank you. Id be happy for the net to be slower if it meant that less young folk were exposed to toxic influences. If it can be done, then its not a bad thing...its a good thing. Let us see if it can be done. If not, we tried and KNOW we tried, and can try later when technology gets better, until it really works for us. I agree that the rant of the liberty-freedom mantra is somewhat tragic. Perhaps this is the real tragedy, Tatti. There is so much good that can be achieved yet there is simply not the will nor the compassion among the technological'illuminati'. Its interesting how the cry for liberty parallels the american gun lobby...the whole "guns dont kill people...people kill people. To protect liberty we must not do anything!". Just a few months back it was social heresy to say there should be controls and regulations on Wall Street.It was freedom, liberty, competition, and the free market and made us all richer.That was a great tragedy.
When it comes to real concern for the young, the technological 'illuminati' remain recalcitrant, obdurate and fully self absorbed, blinking back at the little blinking screen looking for freedom in such a tiny and imperfect thing, secured away from caring.

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kanine
July 5th, 2009

"TATTI! So well said. Thank you. Id be happy for the net to be slower if it meant that less young folk were exposed to toxic influences"

AGAIN, it comes back to a choice btwn arbitrary cencorship V's actually teaching our kids right from wrong, and for parents to actually educate themselves on the use of the internet. PARENTS actually need to get involved in monitoring what comes across their children's monitors, not simply be so appathetic as to palm off what is THEIR resposibility to some draconian cencorship system.

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Newspeak
December 20th, 2008

I can see that your very closed minded for a person who obviously goes looking for sites like this one. I just can't see the justice that you see. When the government brings in this new censorship it won't do a single thing because the pedophiles and others will just use the ftp severs and find ways around it, like all the hackers do they will find a way. And besides when I put the filter on at google it doesn't come up with any porn so like people have said already, the only reason that the child is viewing the porn is because they went there themselves and then to get out of trouble they say that it just popped up! Then the parents get upset write angry letters and get involved in trying to stop it, well if we had that sort of support we could have got rid of old Johnny H long ago and we wouldn't have fluoride in the water, we wouldn't have sold off all our commodities and given up our sovereignty to the off sore giants but I almost forgot we're doing for kids so it's alright, give me a break.

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Mr Bateman
December 8th, 2008

These are really ignorant comments, and its really a shame that so many people are so misinformed. I suppose this is one of the reasons why the filter will probably get the go ahead.

Mekong is 100% correct, we have always been surrounded by porn in various wrappers, perhaps the internet does make it more accessible, but the negatives far outway the positives.

Working in IT, and having to deal with Australias already slow Broadband network is the pinnacle of frustration. The country is losing big dollars over companies inability to move data quickly..and they want to slow it further? It is lunacy.

I am not confronted with pornography and violence each time I open a web browser, and I doubt neither are small children. If they are looking for it - then let the parents deal with it. And we do know that most of the 'child porn' Conroy so loves to chant, is not distributed by http, but by methods that are not being blocked under this proposal.

Tatti, Mr Han, get off your high horses, take your heads out of the sand and look at the technological, economic and social repercussions of this - before you target the rest of us as being fashionable for opposing a very, very bad idea...

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Christian Dad
November 29th, 2008

So Han, how do you feel being in the minority, please consider what Holly Doel-Mackaway, adviser with "Save the Children" has to say about internet filter and children.

You would be amazed at the negative results that will occur by trying, in vain, to protect the children by trying to hide reality. After bring up 6 children, you learn a few things and what Holly says is so true and you would do well in learning what she has to say.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/technology/childrens-welfare-groups-slam-net-filters/2008/11/28/1227491813497.html

Also
take note of what James McDougall, director of the National Children's and Youth Law Centre has to say.

In any case it would be better to attack the child abuse at the source rather than hiding it and pretending it does not exist. (experience from o/s). This happens because money is limited, and even more so because it becomes split between filtering and policing. And so the police save money by just hiding sites when they have mot the money to investigate.

We live in a world of limited resources and the filter, which can be bypassed, will just drain away money that would be better spent empowering parents and children in being safe on the net.

Children learn how to be safe on the streets, stranger danger, etc and from experience they will be safe on the net when given the education to be so.

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Jane
November 29th, 2008

I love the idea of filtering, once it is implemented then I will feel safe letting my children use the net without having to worry about all the pron that pops up on our computer.

I don't care about any nerd who will not be able to swear on the net after the filter, or see his filthy pictures. They just don't care about children and the sick men who sell their abuse photos on the net. Thankyou Mr Han for sticking up for mothers who have been forbidding their children to use the internet because of all the smut that is on there. Its bad enough that TV shows have semi naked people on there and the internet is so much worse.

Mr Rudd should be commended for his stand on cleaning up the internet and I'm hoping that he will do the same for the other media.

As to censorship claims, I think that all media should be checked for correctness and any anti-australian stories should not be allowed. These type of stories undermine what we teach our children at home and school. Our youth crime would be reduced dramatically if the media and internet were censored directly by the government. After all we vote in the government and expect them to enact laws to protect all australians.

It is interesting that you compared these sick technological'illuminati' (just nerds to me) to those calling for the weapons of death. These sick people are destroying childrens lives with all that pron and how dare they allow it to continue. Just like guns are for killing people, these sick nerds are all for destroying childrens lives. If they want supposed freedom of speech then let them talk to each other in a public place, that ought to clean up their lives and teach them some morals.

I've written to Senator Conroy encouraging him to press on implementing the filter, even if the trials are not so favorable. I am sure the government can force the ISP to make it work correctly. Also asked that the restrictions be M rating for the opt-out and G rating for the opt-in. There is no need for swearing or semi-nude women to be on any media, entertainment has gone from clean in the 50's to smuty today. Also told him that I expected that the "skin tone" filter to be implemented for all.

Mr Rudd, I say ignore the nerds and press forward with the filter.

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Seb
December 16th, 2009

How is the filter going to stop your children from easily downloading and viewing pornography that is encrypted? How is the filter going to stop your children from easily downloading pornography from P2P software (such as torrent software) that this filter DOES NOT process? As earlier pointed out, this filter is a complete waste of money, as those "nerds" will find other ways of reaching the masses. We nerds, have our freedom of speech that nobody could possibly censor. The more they try, the larger the cyphers get, the longer it takes them to crack.

In case you didn't realise, they've also censored a game. A GAME! Censor any movies that contain drug use or sexual scenes because minors could stay up until 11pm and secretely watch or record them, as I did back in my time? Your children will learn about sex, drugs, etc regardless of how much censorship you cram down their throats. In fact, lack of adequate parenting, in my opinion, will lead to them learning these lessons far, far sooner than you wish.

One last thing: They won't filter by "skin tone". It's unfeasable. There are simply too many codecs/file formats, and as I mentioned, encryption... No matter what you hear, it isn't 100% accurate. Ask Telstra, Optus, etc. Ask any IT professional. Also ask them about the potential impact on speed that censorship will have. They will know better than Rudd, or Senator what's-his-name, because it's their job.

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Angelicus
June 9th, 2009

The good old 1950's, at the age of 9 when I sold magazines in the streets of inner Melbourne, with airbrushed pictures.
Three spots for women, and one for men.

The Goverment and society really protected children.

When children as young as 6 could not lift bundles of newspapers, but needed to contribute to a family without a male breadwinners, pulled "old mens cocks" for 4 shillings.

Where 12 year old girls worked as prostitudes to help feed their younger brothers and sisters, as the old man was an alcholic or he just pissed off.

When 14 year olds girls and boys left school, but could not find a job or make enough money to help a family worked as sex workers.

It was legal, as long as the powerful got a brown paper envelope.

Then again sex work may have been better than the factories that poisoned many children and made them old before they were old.

May the worst thing that happens to children is to see naked bodies of people.

May the 1950,s & those with brains of that era, go to hell.

Censorship is about the powerful, creating more power for themselves.

When I hear someone say, "I am from the Goverment and I am here to help you" I know he wants to put chains around my soul.

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Jerry
January 10th, 2009

Jane, I'm sorry but you really don't know what you are talking about. Before you make up your mind, I suggest you first try to inform yourself a bit better on this issue.
The kids you are referring to are growing up with computers, and their technical knowledge goes far beyond your imagination. I am absolutely sure that before they go to high school, they have found dozens of ways to outsmart this horrible filter. If you think that after this filter has been put to work, your children are safe, so that you don't have to bother anymore yourself, then it's my opinion that you are not taking your responsibilities towards your children serious. Do you also rely on the Police force to raise your children when they're out on the street, I hope not.
This filter will certainly not protect the way it is supposed to, and will have numerous negative side effects, for instance because of blocking legitimate content, which may very well harm the Australian economy as well.

I am not interested at all in porn or dirty pictures, and the funny thing is, without any filter installed, I never see it appear on my computer screen. To me the internet is a business tool, necessary to keep my businesses alive. A crawling internet blocking international business content by mistake will have immediate devastating impact

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Jerry
January 10th, 2009

Jane, I'm sorry but you really don't know what you are talking about. Before you make up your mind, I suggest you first try to inform yourself a bit better on this issue.
The kids you are referring to are growing up with computers, and their technical knowledge goes far beyond your imagination. I am absolutely sure that before they go to high school, they have found dozens of ways to outsmart this horrible filter. If you think that after this filter has been put to work, your children are safe, so that you don't have to bother anymore yourself, than it's my opinion that you are not taking your responsibilities towards your children serious. Do you also rely on the Police force to raise your children when they're out on the street, I hope not.
This filter will certainly not protect the way it is supposed to, and will have numerous negative side effects, for instance because of blocking legitimate content, which may very well harm the Australian economy as well.

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Jerry
January 10th, 2009

Jane, I'm sorry but you really don't know what you are talking about. Before you make up your mind, I suggest you first try to inform yourself a bit better on this issue.
The kids you are referring to are growing up with computers, and their technical knowledge goes far beyond your imagination. I am absolutely sure that before they go to high school, they have found dozens of ways to outsmart this horrible filter. If you think that after this filter has been put to work, your children are safe, so that you don't have to bother anymore yourself, than it's my opinion that you are not taking your responsibilities towards your children serious. Do you also rely on the Police force to raise your children when they're out on the street, I hope not.
This filter will certainly not protect the way it is supposed to, and will have numerous negative side effects, for instance because of blocking legitimate content, which may very well harm the Australian economy as well.

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cs
December 24th, 2008

Jane,

If you have porn "popping up" on your computer than you probably have a virus or trojan on your system. You should purchase an anti-virus, anti-spyware program and install it on your p.c. Some even have parental controls so that YOU can protect YOUR children.

Checked for correctness?

Is your 1950's view of the 22nd century world any more correct than mine or the next person's?

Anti-Australian stories?

This proposed filter has made Australia a laughing stock around the world and as such IT is an anti-Australian story which to me also makes it un-Australian. Show me ONE of these stories that you have found on the net.

Reduce youth crime dramatically?

How in the world would imposing YOUR 1950's view of the world on ALL Australians reduce youth crime dramatically.

You say "These sick people are destroying childrens lives with all that pron and how dare they allow it to continue."

I ask: How would implementing this stick your head in the sand, Sweep the problem under the carpet by hiding it from view, filter, stop the problem? Will this filter save any children?

Answer: IT WON'T.

What is your preferred skin colour?

For trying to hide reality from view you and Sinister Conroy should be ashamed.

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Kate
December 22nd, 2008

Jane, why don't you turn off Oprah and supervise your children? Or better still download the free adult content blocker the Howard govt released when they were in office? I doubt your small children will be able to circumvent it. Though I'll also put money on them being far more computer literate than you are.

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Johnno Rocket
December 22nd, 2008

Jane,

Its really very simple for parents such as yourselves to filter what kids see on YOUR computer by speaking to these so called "nerds" you so aptly describe & denigrate in your response at your local, friendly computer shop & asking them or any good computer software retailer about the myriad of fantastic Net Filter control software already available like NetNanny & the brilliant "IShieldTheFamily" http://www.ishieldthefamily.com filtering software.

Telling illiterate politicians like Sen Conroy & others like Family Firsts, Sen Steve Fielding (whose preference votes come from the Liberals) & his party to filter the net makes govts spend wasteful millions of valuable tax dollars in a time when we need it to combat global economic hardship & does absolutely nothing to stop pornography as less is spent on effective law enforcement activites on actually catching these perverts who actually produce the stuff in action, many who are organised crime syndicates exploiting very poor, young girls who govts worldwide seem always powerless to assist or give up way too easily. Instead even in Australia, whats happening is that Students are being caught in sexual relationships with Teachers because the govt spends useless money on not policing activities such as these more closely.

If you sincerely believe that this will stop child & other pornography then you’re seriously mistaken as a filter will only make the material far more scarce to obtain & more valuable for the exploiters to tempt even more & more (less of an available product means its price massively rises - simple economics) poor, young kids out of poverty/hardship (massively exacerbated by the global economic crisis) into their perverse activities. If you also asked these “nerds” theyd tell you that there are millions of ways to access & encrypt so it will be like a drop in the ocean. In fact, sick people (who govts worldwide seem to offer absolutely no help to rather than jail time!) who acted out virtual, harmless fantasies might well be tempted instead do them for real & gratify themselves, possibly with real children instead, maybe even your very own!.

The filter would also allow governments & concerned individuals to filter whats on the net based on "govt policy criteria", so are you saying in essence to Sen Conroy that its now OK to not just Modify but essentially “Lie” to children on things they see on the net, such as historical events, regional & religious conflicts etc. Do you really want your & other children (who will eventually be our business & other leaders) to grow up in a myriad of lies & inaccuracies “for their own good” & in future wage regional conflicts & potential global, far reaching decisions on humanity like dumb puppets on a string based on this mis-information?

Instead, why don’t YOU start being a responsible parent & purchase some net control software & ask Sen Conroy for a more effective subsidy of these.

Not only would this be far more effective & cheaper, Sen Conroy instead can spend money on fixing up our pathetic TV, Radio & Broadband infrastructures which are far from world class for an OECD country or better still investing in much needed public transport & "Green" power/vehicle futures & also have plenty left over to globally combat Child Pornography & exploitation on a global scale with UN/Interpol (which is what they REALLY should be doing instead!). In fact, Australia is the technological laughing stock of the world!

May I recommend IShieldthefamily products & website where if you visit you can find a myriad of examples of teachers who aren’t surfing for porn but were surfing for kids like yours to exploit & did so!.

The only thing this filter will incite is also a massive, global "Cyber War" response to Australias plight which will put each & every Internet security system in Australia under undue stress simply because people will find it fun to bypass.

Australia is so backward when it comes to far more progressive countries like Europe. If we go down the path of Internet Censorship then may I propose that we 1) Stop mocking countries like North Korea & China about how they control their Net policies as we sound like absolute hypocrites if we allow this filter to pass & 2) Give up our pathetic goal of obtaining a UN Security Council seat as with a public, potentially misinformed by an “Internet Filter” distorting information some one with good intentions implemented, I don’t believe we deserve to make global security judgements when ours would be seriously impaired!

Remember all dictators throughout history started their tenure with the best intentions at the time & eventually went down the slippery slopes of disaster!

Finally, Hitler implemented all these things for the "good of Germany" in WWII & not only was proven wrong but his poor insight brought death & misery to a mis-informed German public who died in their millions believing in lies. Is that a world we really want to live in?

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Andrew
December 13th, 2008

I suggest you go live in China or North Korea or even Iran, you are entitled to your views but Don't think for a second you have the right to impose them on me or any one else. Freedom in a democracy is not a privilege but a right that no government should be allowed to remove. Supervision of my 10 year son is how he uses the internet and i am NOT pro child porn just because i opposes a Chinese style communist dictatorship.

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James Paleman
December 9th, 2008

Jane,

Its people like you and Conroy that clearly don't understand the internet and what the filtering is actually going to do.

You kids will still be able to access "Smut" as you so eloquently put it. Your sons and daughters will still be able to be stalked by pedophiles in chat rooms.

Have you downloaded the free filter that is available for your home PC? It already does what this whole filtering process is trying to achieve.

Comments like "sick technological'illuminati' (just nerds to me)" really just shows that you are an ignorant fool and have no concept of the world we live in. I understand you are probably old and grew up in a different time but when you talk about sick nerds you are just PWNING yourself. I dont expect you to understand what i just said to you as its just lingo for us "SICK technological'illuminati'".

Lets all protend the problem doesn't exist, try and filter and let these SICK Pedophiles, not nerds, continue sending there shit around the internet using protocols that people like you just dont understand.

Pull your head in!



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Kathryn
December 6th, 2008

It is not just the nerds though and not just men either. It is men and women and people who are not nerds or not as much as nerds and anyone against limiting the choice that adults by law can make for themselves.

YES children should be protected, but like Christian Dad said any abuse should be attacked at its PRIMARY source i.e the individual inflicting any abuse. Not from the SECONDARY source i.e the internet.

As for pornography itself. Again it is not just male "nerds" either but even women. Then it is those who are high functioning autistics who don't find it as easy as you to find a partner. And so they need some form of an outlet.

Also you are singling out a whole industry when you should be singling out the few or group with in the industry who do it to inflict pain.

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anon
December 6th, 2008

Jane, A very simple remedy re internet content, is to click on Tools, Internet Options, Content, Enable.
I am 74 years old, and have never seen or downloaded any content which I consider unacceptable. This is because my settings using the above procedure blocks this sort of
content.In the case of your children being exposed to bad content, perhaps you could change your settings as above without them being aware that you have done so, otherwise the computer literate kids could disable them.This is one of the first basic steps you can take. Try it!

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Ryan
December 6th, 2008

Woah there.

I don't really think this is about "smuttiness" as much as it is about acceptance and freedom. What is deemed "Acceptable" by one person might be restricting the rights of others. For example, I don't really like to swear at all, but that doesn't mean I'm going to impose laws that say it is illegal. It seems quite selfish to me to want everything your way.

There are more sides to consider than just protecting children from the real world...

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Luke Tinker
December 3rd, 2008

no if some one has a will there is always a way. maam i have had a computer since the age of 4 and acquired an internet connection at the age of 6. will the government filter incorporate corporate VPN (highly secure network connection) filtering not doing so would be creating a major floor and a simple way to bypass censorship through VPN's sure it will help reduce the amount of media that come through the internet but it WILL amount to alternate methods in presenting offensive material. teaching how to use the net safely is a much better alternative

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BoohooStu
December 2nd, 2008

This is a spoof, right!? Please God, tell me it is or I shall have to go and hang myself!

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God
December 6th, 2008

It's a spoof. :)

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Anti-Jane
December 2nd, 2008

From the points made in this comment, Jane no doubt would feel at home in a fascist society where government enacts laws to jail anyone who is thought to be even remotely threatening to "security" and the "welfare" of "children".

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Mr Han
November 28th, 2008

TATTI! So well said. Thank you. Id be happy for the net to be slower if it meant that less young folk were exposed to toxic influences. If it can be done, then its not a bad thing...its a good thing. Let us see if it can be done. If not, we tried and KNOW we tried, and can try later when technology gets better, until it really works for us. I agree that the rant of the liberty-freedom mantra is somewhat tragic. Perhaps this is the real tragedy, Tatti. There is so much good that can be achieved yet there is simply not the will nor the compassion among the 'illuminati'. Its interesting how the cry for liberty parallels the american gun lobby...the whole "guns dont kill people...people kill people. To protect liberty we must not do anything!". The technological 'illuminati' remain incalcitrant and self absorbed...and just not interested in social responsibility on in the future of children.

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Mr Han
November 28th, 2008

TATTI! So well said. Thank you. Id be happy for the net to be slower if it meant that less young folk were exposed to toxic influences. If it can be done, then its not a bad thing...its a good thing. let us see if it can be done. If not, we tried and maybe can try later when technology gets better-er. I agree the rant of the liberty-freedom mantra is somewhat tragic. Perhaps this is the real tragedy. There is so much good that can be achieved yet there is simply not the will nor the compassion among the 'educated'. they have other fish to fry...free market deregulation and all the other manifestations of a society that does not care for its young...and sees 'not caring' as the promised land.

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Steven
November 4th, 2008

Please getup can you run a campaign against this silly, potentially oppressive/Orwellian initiative!

This is the second time in a fortnight that I have been embarrassed to call myself an Australian! I am normally very proud of my country.

I have been reading what the media in liberal democracies overseas have been writing about this initiative (and the decision to deny a doctor leave to remain in Australia based on the fact that his son has Downs Syndrome) and it is not flattering.

I hope that we do not end up with a filtering regime on par with those in China, Myanmar or Iran.

Please, please, please run a campaign!

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Alex
November 4th, 2008

Why on earth isn't GetUP running a campaign against this ridiculous scheme?

How long will it take before the GetUp site "accidentally" ends up being blocked, considering the volume of "seditious" material on this site...and the next time the government needs to suck up to some minority interest, we can expect to see a whole new bunch of material added to the filter too.

If you want to "think of the children", move to North Korea where they have this kind of thing already. Or Iran perhaps.

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Penguin
November 4th, 2008

I'm also amazed that GetUp is silent on this matter.

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Disapponted
November 4th, 2008

I'm not.

GetUp is a front group for the ALP.

In fact, this post will almost certainly be censored for pointing it out, and you won't end up seeing it.

If they're not, this is the perfect issue to prove it, but I highly, highly doubt it.

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fstix
November 26th, 2008

Would you like some humble pie?

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Colonel
November 27th, 2008

Perhaps Getup is controled more by a different faction of the ALP than what Conroy comes from. It will be interesting to see how far GetUp push this but so far I'm pleasantly surprised.

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Mr Han
November 28th, 2008

Colonel, Im afraid the truth is even worse. Getup is controlled by the same people who voted in Howard and after a decade of that voted in Rudd.Im deeply worried about the REAL AGENDA of the people...People-ism in all its bizarre forms.
Fact is, its not a bad thing to try to do some good. Blink and the chance is gone. Take the chance. Try to do some good. It might work.

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sekasi
November 4th, 2008

Again we're faced with another juridical atrocity under the name of "protection of citizens". This time the children came to bear the veil of lies.

I find it abhorrent that Australia is not more aware of the consequences of letting the government dictate what sites would be okay to visit or not.

Today: Illegal content.
Tomorrow: Inappropriate content (Think homosexuality, abortion and alternate lifestyles)
Future: Who knows.

I thought Australia would be spared from these malicious trends of information control. Guess not. I'm changing my vote next election, as well as my ISP if they don't speak up against this.

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Stu
November 4th, 2008

I am also concerned about Getup's lack of action on this to date.

I understand that it has not had much coverage in the media to date, and few people seem to understand the technicalities (Senator Conroy and Prime Minister Rudd certainly do not).

But this is without a doubt the greatest threat to freedom of expression and the democratic process that Australia has faced this century. It cannot be allowed to proceed.

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Damo
November 4th, 2008

GetUp needs to be all over this to the point of suspending other campaigns if necessary. No other single policy will cripple so many aspects of modern life as we move forward. These may not be life threatening changes, but they are life changing threats on the governments behalf.
First step, remove this dictatorship policy and make it never come back.
Next step, achieve a bill of rights.

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workingmum
December 23rd, 2008

I TOTALLY agree. Get UP GET UP and do something!

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David
November 4th, 2008

I have several problems with this:

1. Moral - Censorship is a tricky issue at the best of times, and in this case is "illegal" matters they wish to block. A noble endevour however it appears that this is a already being subject to scope creep from special interest groups, family first being the loudest. Since this list is not subject to freedom of information it is quite possible that anything can go on this list - and we will never know. As each new gov. comes in, the list will be expanded yet again, slowing an already overburned network down more.

2. Technological - I know 4 ways around this immediately. A private connection similar to what people at home use to connect to work, called a VPN, is prehaps the most simple. It does not effect peer-to-peer, so bit torrent etc will not be effected, however sites such as hotmail and facebook will be blocked due to drug and euthenasia discussions that occur. Also the "excess" skin tones that appear in bikini and male shirts off photos have it and myspace immediately pegged as porn.

3. Parents - If this goes ahead, then parents may feel the need to lessen supervision. That is not acceptable, this thing is at best blocking 90% only, and does not block chatrooms at all, so the favoured hunting ground of the pedophile (the very people this is all supposed to stop) will be uneffected.

4. Child porn - This is what Sen. Conroy is using to push this bill, going so far as to call any who oppose it child porn supporters. Thing is, this is not posted on the web as its perpetrators are caught very quickly. A majority of this kind of content is hosted on private servers offshore, and is not accessable to the general public, hence the difficulty in police gaining access to these clubs in order to shut them down. This grand firewall around Australia, as restrictive as that in China, will not even remotely impact the very thing Sen. Conroy is using to push it.

5. Costs - The gov has allocated $44 Mil for the implementation of the list - hardware and implementation costs will be up to the ISPs. This means the cost of your internet will go up, probably quite significantly. The average internet consumer makes their ISP $4 a month, bigpond excepted. The companies will not be able to afford to not pass this on, and many smaller ISPs will no doubt be shut down.

6. Internet banking/commerce - Most of the filters tested performed a "Man in the Middle" attack. This means if you attempt to send encrypted web page traffic it intercepts, decrypts and has a look. Congratulations, the gov now knows all your internet banking and credit card information. Also, I'm quite sure that the ISPs will be getting hammered by overseas hackers very keen to intercept these packets, which will be much more likely as security is weakened by this firewall.

7. The Lies - NZ has no filtering, Britian has limited blacklist similar to what we currently have - Child porn traffic that can not be shut down until the perps are identified for instance. No, what Sen. Conroy wants is more akin to that of China, Burma, Iran and North Korea.

Basically this is a collosal waste of time and resources, as what the gov wants it for IT CAN NOT DO. It will be subject to creep, and since the list is secret we will never know whats on it - whos to say in 3 years time, the liberal, green, or for that matter any non-ALP website will not be blocked as they are critising the gov therefore labelled as "sedition"?

This is an attack on civil liberties, and one I will not stand for.

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jls
November 27th, 2008

Just a comment on your point 6, the type of encryption used by these web sites can not just be intercepted by a man-in-the-middle attack. Simplistically, the client (your PC) and the host (your bank's server) negotiate a password and then all further communications appear to anyone in between as garbage.
All the gov't filter can do in this case is look at the actual address being requested and make a decision to block or not based on this.

Nice article tho, some great points that seem obvious to most people but obviously not to several politicians.

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Mark Newton
November 4th, 2008

This article stands distinct from most other articles that have appeared in the press of late for not including some ridiculous howler by a delusionly wrong politician.

Which makes it difficult to comment on it, because there's very little left to be said.

The Rudd/Conroy Internet censorship scheme is a total disaster from beginning to end. It's being pushed by people who don't know what they're talking about, who use aggressive bluster and personal attacks to quell criticism instead of engaging the public in the debate.

The system must be stopped. Give the $44m to the existing ISPs on the IIA's "Family Friendly ISP" scheme to help support their business; Give some of it to some of the small Australian companies who develop and publish PC-level filtering software.

But for gods sake, don't spend a single cent of it on mandatory censorship for Australia's Internet. The whole idea is beneath contempt.

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Frank Filippone
November 5th, 2008

Couldn't of said it better myself.

A calm straight forward article with intelligent commentary that leaves out the deliberately polarising and emotionally charged FUD being hysterically shouted by the vocal minority pushing their own agendas.

A fundamentally flawed Government policy that will waste enormous sums of tax payers money and will create far more serious problems than the ones it impossibly proposes to solve.

This is the PERFECT campaign for GetUp! to support.

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Panterka
November 4th, 2008

Several points...

1) This filter would be exceptionally easy to bypass and yes, even a child could do it, provided they knew how to google. e.g. anonymous proxies, VPNs, TOR... It would take them 10-30 minutes.

2) The filter would not cover P2P, Instant messaging or email protocols. P2P accounts for about 60% of the internet traffic.

3) This will force the real criminals such as child pornographers to use more secure means of accessing the whatever they want, making it harder for the police to track them down and bring them to justice

4) This blacklist will eventually be leaked... Have no doubts about that. All it will take is one disgruntled employee.

5) Who gets to decide what goes on this black list? The government? There are already suggestions to Fielding and Xenophon to ban gambling sites, anorexia sites. What else is going to end up there? Anything with a word euthanasia in it? What about stem cell research?

6) The filter will be able to scan HTTPS... think online banking, Paypal. Feeling good about this yet?

7) Given the rates of false positives and false negatives generated by the filters as tested by ACMA, this will result in THOUSANDS of legitimate sites being banned (including small business, great for our economy, eh?) and THOUSANDS inappropriate sites being allowed through.

8) This filter will give parents a false sense of security. If you want your child to be safe on the internet, SUPERVISE THEM!!! The same as you would do with TV, books, magazines. There are numerous opt-in filtering options available from many ISP's. Not to mention the government's net filter - which is completely free.

9) This will slow down the internet considerably and will have a detrimental effect on Australia's economy.

10) And most importantly, IT WILL NOT PROTECT THE CHILDREN.

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acdcfan
November 4th, 2008

It will not accomplish anything. There has to be a hidden agenda somewhere. Thoughts control?
I am ashamed to call myself Australian and even less proud to be one.
Kevin always wanted to bring Australia and China closer.

Welcome to CRAP Communist Party of Australian provinces ( whirlpool user)

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Dan
November 28th, 2008

Control of the Media gives absolute power, what other reason would someone have to suppress Free-Speech.

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STWA
November 4th, 2008

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=7968823265

Facebook
group protesting the cleanfeed

http://www.somebodythinkofthechildren.com/

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Scott
November 4th, 2008

I am completely opposed to the idea of a mandatory internet filter. They claim it will only block "illegal" material, but this is not as black and white as it seems. eg. a site that details how to make crystal meth, versus a site that lets families know how to get help for meth addiction. Or how about the old art versus pornography debate. Humans can't even find the line between this one, how is a filter going to do it?

Once this system is in place, how many special interest groups will be in the governemnt's ear wanting something added to the filter? This would be far too easy to abuse.

In the end the moral debate is almost a moot point, the filters are not technically feasible. The governemnts own test results (available on ACMA website) clearly show this.

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Richary
November 4th, 2008

Everything I could say against this has already been said before. The filter:

a) won't work
b) will slow internet speeds
c) will block legitimate sites
d) will impost additional costs on ISPs that will have to be passed on.

Please, we need to organise a campaign against the government on this.

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Mr Han
November 28th, 2008

Well, let's see. No harm in trying to do something good.

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Mk1
December 16th, 2009

Maybe in Fairyland, but here in the real world there are often grave and far reaching consequences that arise in the pursuit of 'doing good', and that is without even looking into the concept of 'good'.

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overkill
December 5th, 2008

Mr Han.... So you think the internet filtering scheme is a good idea? of course everyone is entitled to there own opinion, however, in this case in theory it may have merit, but in practice it is nothing more than a pipe dream if anyone thinks it will be successful in blocking illegal material

Consider the below:

Any determined individual (Who wants to) is going to find ways to get around such a filtering scheme such as this. Also, creating a "blacklist" of sites enforcing every ISP to implement that list is going to be leaked one way or another. With such a list & methods to get aronud the filtering scheme (Not to mention the speed issues & accuracy of such a filter) it is likely to have an overall opposite effect. Don't think for a minute that your average 10-12 year old is going to have no problem getting around such a filter. IF this filtering scheme does succeed in getting implemented the methods to get around it will become public knowledge in no time.

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Christian Dad
November 29th, 2008

Not according to Holly Doel-Mackaway, adviser with Save the Children, the largest independent children's rights agency in the world.

Trying the filter will divert much needed funds from the real work of protecting children and tracking down the sickos.

There will be "harm" to the internet in australia, and our reputation around the world.

There will be "harm" to our business over the internet, and even if minor, it will still be harm during this time of financial problems.

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November 29th, 2008

they said something like that before they went to the war aswell

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Daniel
November 4th, 2008

I would like to add my name to the list of those requesting that you bring attention to this issue. I will not list my objections to the government's proposal as you have largely covered them in your article. I will simply state that this issue deserves significant public attention, and a much more rigorous debate than it has thus far been subjected to.

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Sean the Blogonaut
November 4th, 2008

I too am at the point where saying anymore sounds like a broken record.

GetUp needs to get a campaign running to contribute additional pressure. The online community is ovrwhealmingly in support of canning the filter idea, yet politicians hand wave away online opinion polls. A concerted campaign from Getup makes it that much harder to argue against.

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Sostenuto
November 5th, 2008

Making filtering mandatory will exchange the noble aim of child protection for the spectre of Government Censorship. Making the blacklist secret is perilous: the OFLC at least has to disclose what is Refused Classification.

ISP-level filters were initially proposed to protect the children, but on closer inspection seem to be a too-clumsy tool. The term 'Child protection' now seems to bundle up several unrelated hopes, and hide the feasibility questions.

1. Will filters reduce the severity or incidence of abuse of children in the production of child porn?

2. Will filters reduce the distress that abused children suffer from knowing their actions or experiences are published?

3. Will filters reduce sexualising/confronting behaviour towards children by the general population?

4. Will mandatory filters reduce sexualisation effects on children of entertainment and recreation?

5. Will mandatory filters reduce the discomfort felt by children at their first discovery of confronting attitudes/images/media?

6. Will filters reduce young people's ignorance of personal development and sexual health issues?

There seems to be little evidence that mandatory filters will achieve any of these laudable goals. In the interests of healthy child development, filters should remain optional for each computer user. Parents should encourage their children to use filters along with other productivity tools to appropriately personalise their internet experience.

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Woomera
November 5th, 2008

COME ON GETUP, GETUP AND GET A CAMPAIGN GOING.

I have supported Getup a great deal with almost all campaigns and also with donations, now is the time to get going to defeat and sink this insidious interference with the freedom that we expect in Australia.

As stated above "Government censorship can never be an acceptable substitute for parental discretion."

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Sostenuto
November 5th, 2008

Making filtering mandatory will exchange the noble aim of child protection for the spectre of Government Censorship. Making the blacklist secret is perilous: the OFLC at least has to disclose what is Refused Classification.

ISP-level filters were initially proposed to protect the children, but on closer inspection seem to be a too-clumsy tool. The term 'Child protection' now seems to bundle up several unrelated hopes, and hide the feasibility questions.

1. Will filters reduce the severity or incidence of abuse of children in the production of child porn?

2. Will filters reduce the distress that abused children suffer from knowing their actions or experiences are published?

3. Will filters reduce sexualising/confronting behaviour towards children by the general population?

4. Will mandatory filters reduce sexualisation effects on children of entertainment and recreation?

5. Will mandatory filters reduce the discomfort felt by children at their first discovery of confronting attitudes/images/media?

6. Will filters reduce young people's ignorance of personal development and sexual health issues?

There seems to be little evidence that mandatory filters will achieve any of these laudable goals. In the interests of healthy child development, filters should remain optional for each computer user. Parents should encourage their children to use filters along with other productivity tools to appropriately personalise their internet experience.

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Eddie
November 5th, 2008

Color me against mandatory filtering as well. It's such a stupid, unworkable idea.


GetUp! definitely need to run a campaign against this ridiculous scheme.

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Dominic Flynn
November 5th, 2008

Perhaps GetUp is right behind Labor and the internet censorship policy.

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honest john
November 20th, 2008

so what is wrong with stopping child porn being viewed on the internet ?? is that what you call a civilized society ; freedom to view child porn i dont think so

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James Bennett
January 15th, 2009

Filtering will not stop people desperate enough for child porn they take high risk to get it.
The government doesn't need to stop the photos from being on the net but stop them from being taken.
The filter only forces them deeper underground and harder to stop them from exploiting children.
They should want people to find the sites so they can report it and catch the individuals doing this.
Civilized society does not exist. Each person determines their own civility. Rejecting child porn individually is what makes someone civilised.
Your society does not exist.

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Damian
November 30th, 2008

The thing about filtering John is that it can be abused. eg there is a medical database called Popline, the search site is run by the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Maryland [US]. Its used around the world. Earlier this year articles on abortion suddenly disappeared as abortion became a stop word. Its since been rectified.

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/04/a-government-fu.html

How
will the firewall handle Peer 2 Peer file sharing, emails & email attachments, Instant messaging file transfers or Virtual private networks or if people subscribe directly to a ISP overseas

who remembers baby pics of you in the bath being sent to aunties and uncles - hey guess what - that can be taken as porn.

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honest john
November 30th, 2008

Damian
my argument is that porno is being streamed into remote aboriginal communities unchecked.we have have enough problems as it is.
to all the know-alls out there how about some solutions not reams of negativity from guess who.

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Damian
November 30th, 2008

Solution - Put the computer in the living room etc where everyone can see whats happening and have the parents turn the damn thing off when the kids get into naughty stuff. Its called common sense.

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honest john
November 30th, 2008

Damian
my argument is that porn is 70% of downloads on the internet,going into remote aboriginal communities unchecked.as if these communities havent enough problems.
what i want to see is some control.
so to all you know-alls out there what do we do

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James Bennett
January 15th, 2009

Nothing
Porn for most people is totally fine and they can deal with it well while enjoying the satisfaction. Our bodies are natural and nothing to be ashamed of. The problems with the indigenous population of Australia is that they and the people who settled here had very different cultures. We need to stop giving handouts and start getting the work.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day
Teach a man to fish and he eats every day

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Damian
December 4th, 2008

So we've gone from child porn to unchecked porn downloads.. if parents are concerned about porn, by all means put in a net filter on your own computer - the last govt was quite happily handing one out for free (hey heres a control- dont know how good it is though)or alternatively the parental responsibility (it is a control) of turning the PC off.

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scarred Man
November 26th, 2008

To Honest John,
I am sure we all here take umbrage at your inference. I am pretty confident that any who have responded here, along with 99% of the Oz population do not entertain ourselves with Child porn either on the net or anywhere else.
And I agree with one here that children are being exposed to far greater harm from all the legal, honest john, modes of media.
Jim Scott

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honest john
November 26th, 2008

i suggest get-up run a campaign for heavy jail terms for sex offenders with NO PROTECTION whilst serving their sentences LIKE THE GOOD OLD DAYS.

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Damian
November 26th, 2008

LMAO its not just about child porn and frankly good on the cops taking down the sickos, but how about if sites such as getup.org.au ended up on the filter list and disappeared because they conflicted with the government. welcome to china.

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honest john
December 12th, 2008

the cops are the sickos along with teachers priests,child care workers aged care workers etc etc.
we need to take a vigilante stance

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david from blackburn
November 5th, 2008

Please Getup. Do something about this.

This proposed Internet Censorship policy by Conroy will be a disaster.

You talk about Censorship here.
http://www.getup.org.au/blogs/campaigns.php?id=106
This
is where Channel 7 was blocking ads about Tibet during the Olympics.

You campaigned against a Media monopoly here
http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/NoMediaMonopoly

If
the internet is censored, how many more people will source their news from the mainstream media...

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rick_au
November 5th, 2008

I think getup should run a campaign on this, it will affect every one who uses the internet.
I think GetUp would also get a lot of donations if a campaing was to take place.

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Roo
November 5th, 2008

I agree...

GetUp or GetOff (the net), because that is what is at risk here.

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Andrew
November 5th, 2008

I was appalled when I first heard this, how could the government be so sneaky as to try to slink this past the whole population? I already pay a premium for sub-par internet compared to the rest of the world, now I will have to get even worse speeds and pay more!

Apart from that, the internet is the last free source of information not controlled by the public media. Our media is already censored by whoever's interest out there in terms of advertising and what is appropriate i.e. in the interests of big corporations instead of mom and dad small businesses. We CAN CHOOSE what we want to see on the internet.

For the politicians citing mindlessly "think of the children", they must be clueless. The only reason why perhaps they get whatever pop-ups on their computer screens that is getting them riled is because they were ACTIVELY searching them out ( as can be attested by any virus soaked machine in a computer shop). You can choose what to view and when to view it.

We really do not need people holding our hand everywhere we go as adults; for children on the other hand, you shouldn't let your kids be unsupervised on the internet ( put the computer in a public space like the living room) the filter is just an excuse for lazy parents to go out clubbing while they let the TV or computer babysit their children: no wonder we have so many of our youths doing the wrong thing, being hoons and sticking broken glasses in each other's faces in bars.

Because of lazy parenting!

Installing the filter will make this worse.

Letting this happen is a slap in the face of any decent parent and not to say an act against humanity and will set the precedent for other countries to follow. Welcome to China 2.0 Australia!

No thank you please! Let's GETUP and do something!

Ps: Labor is not getting my vote come next election.

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Mr Han
November 30th, 2008

Andrew...some parents are lazy... ergo their kids deserve what they get? Not your responsibility? Not our responsibility? How modern you are.

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Sam D
November 5th, 2008

About time GetUp! While I am completely supportive of this organisations focus of late on the environment, this censorship issue has to be potentially one of the biggest threats to the nature of our democracy we have ever faced.

I had always thought of GetUp! as independent of the major parties, but with it's reluctance to move against Labor on this issue, I have begun to suspect that it isn't. Please GetUp!, prove me and all the other doubters wrong and begin a campaign against this!

Imagine for a second what a Coalition Government (and we will have one again could do with this filter. Site like this might not stand a chance.

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Glen
November 5th, 2008

I am afraid that the government is totally misguided on this issue and is refusing to see the big picture. Stephen Conroy is roaring full steam ahead with his blinkers on.

This filter will be far too open to abuse from the government, once they implement it and get the legislation passed then what is to stop them from radically expanding the categories of content they want to block?.

By using the ACMA black list for the base line filter this will also ensure that at every ISP in Australia there will be a central list of material just waiting to be leaked that will only serve to show shady characters just where to go to find this stuff!. The standard of internet access in this country will drop further, it will become more expensive and will cost huge amounts of money to implement!, money that could be spend in thousands of more productive places than this.

Filters such as these are also easily circumvented and considering it is designed to 'protect the children' they will fail to do so since the very people this is supposed to shelter are the ones who are most adept at getting around these sorts of things!.

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Sam D
November 5th, 2008

C'mon GetUp! This is a major threat to our democracy, even the Liberal voters I've spoken with can see that. Please start a campaign against the filters, now!

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Jon Seymour
November 5th, 2008

There is no such thing as an effective and democratic filter. It will either be ineffective or it will be totalitarian.

The government needs to be challenged on the premise that because something is illegal it needs to be technically blocked. This is a fallacy. We don't chain leering men to telegraph polls in the presence of attractive women because rape is illegal. We prosecute actual transgressions of the law.

The same should be true of illegal material such as child porn - prosecute actual access to the material rather than impinge upon the freedoms of the majority of the population which has no interest in such material and so will not access it.

Or perhaps the Australian Labor Party really does think the Australian population is so depraved that we will access this material unless it is technically blocked. If the Australian Labor Party really has such a low opinion of the Australian population's moral integrity, then it really doesn't deserve our trust, our respect or our support to be in office.

What the anti-censorship lobby objects to is not that particular content is being blocked, but that the Government intends to create the infrastructure to censor arbitrary content at will. This infrastructure, once created, could be used to block an ever increasing range of material with little effective oversight by the population at large [ because the list of sites blocked would necessarily be classified ].

GetUp! really must run a serious campaign on this issue. It should do it now, and not when the battle has already been won.

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Woomera
November 5th, 2008

COME ON GETUP, GETUP AND GET A CAMPAIGN GOING.

I have supported Getup a great deal with almost all campaigns along with donations, now is the time to do some more and

get going to defeat and sink this insidious interference with the freedom that we expect in Australia.

As stated above "Government censorship can never be an acceptable substitute for parental discretion."

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Merve
November 5th, 2008

Well I sincerely hope that if goes through that no one tries to find a site that sells ballcocks or cock valves as any plumber or hardware store that lists these will be banned as inappropriate??
Not to mention any site that sell male birds, roosters etc. as they are called Cocks?? Oh and what about Bird fanciers -watchers if they mention tits

Tit (bird) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The tits, chickadees, and titmice comprise Paridae, a large family of small passerine birds which occur in the northern hemisphere and Africa.

Shall I go on with this?? or should I mention the probability of SECURE online transactions NOT BEING SECURE any more because of a MAN IN THE MIDDLE ATTACK-FILTERING

They must do this or ignore a vast section of internet traffic
All it would take is worm introduced into the filter and every ones SECURE TRANSACTION DETAILS is open to the world!

Who will pay for personal loss??? the ISP??? or the GOVERNMENT???

This will do nothing to stop "illegal material" or material"inappropriate for children "

It will however hamper our children's ability to access information in their Pursuit of an education

There is already FREE P.C. based solutions available from the government Which when used with SUPERVISION AS ALL CHILDREN SHOULD BE is more then adequate.

THE INTERNET IS NOT A BABY SITTER

PARENTS MUST MONITOR AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN CHILDREN

In conclusion every poll that I have seen has between 80-95% AGAINST THE FILTER
I thought the Government was meant to LISTEN TO THE AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC not DICTATE them

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Syd Walker
November 5th, 2008

Get on with it Get Up

This campaign should take a week or two max if progressive Australia bands together and doesn't pull punches.

No Clean Feed! Keep Australia's internet free!

Turkey introduced filtering a couple of years ago. According to an academic quoted recently by Index on Censorship, there are now as many people in Turkey working on controlling the Internet as deveeioping it.

Conroy's plan is mad. His defence of the policy is a shambles. He should be sacked. The Government must abandon compulsory Clean Feed.

Let's do it quickly, then get back to real issues that aren't just the products of control freaks.

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Nish
November 5th, 2008

It's clear that majority of Australians are against this scheme, or would be if they were properly informed. It is our responsibility to inform the Australian population. The government is doing an unnervingly good job at using misinformation and fear-mongering tactics to push this filter. We cannot allow it to go on.

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merps
November 6th, 2008

Like so many others have stated, I also have supported GetUp in previous campaigns in both donations and signing of petitions. I strongly feel the GetUp as a group should start a campaign to bring this in the media spot light where, hopefully, it will be debated and consequently refuted.

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woggysoggy
November 6th, 2008

Don't worry folks. Can you not guess that GetUp will be blacklisted? Can't possibly have true freedom of thought/expression/ideas, let alone allow people to (shock, horror) organise!

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Genius
November 6th, 2008

Why can't the government do a proper survey on the subject instead of forcing consumers to pay for something they may not want and that may not even work.

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hmm
November 6th, 2008

if this means i cant watch porn or look at asians with tentacles im gonna go down to parliment and crack some skulls

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honest john
November 26th, 2008

hmmm is that tentacles or testicles???
do you have the link????

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weez
April 28th, 2009

Ah, your motivations for filtering just became clear, 'honest' john. You want the government to protect YOU against YOUR sick curiosities.

You need a psychiatrist, not an internet filter.

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Rich-o-rama
November 6th, 2008

If it is so important - Put the money (otherwise spent recompensating ISP's for the filter) towards the Child Protection Taskforce!

If parents want to be proactive they can use 'Net Nannies' like the ware pushed by Howard. Lets not ditch all his policies - a few (just a few) were alright.

In response to other posts - obviously GetUp will campaign on it. So instead of simply calling for it begin to chuck out ideas!

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i am a clown
November 7th, 2008

Please GetUp, make this A MAJOR ISSUE!!!

This issue needs to be in the press everyday and people need to email their representatives to voice their concerns about this!!!!!!

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Jon Seymour
November 7th, 2008

Treat Criminals as Criminals and leave the rest of us alone.

What's wrong with the proposition that convicted sex offenders are forced to consume a strictly filtered feed provided by, say, the NSW education department? Any attempt to use a non-filtered feed would be an criminal offence with appropriate penalities.

This would constrain the deprivation of liberty to convicted sex offenders, would make good use of existing, 99% effective - if draconian - filtering infrastructure and would achieve the stated objective of denying the evildoers access to this illegal material.

The NSW education department's existing, highly effective filtering infrastructure already exists. The incremental cost of adding convicted sex offenders to its client base would be minimal.

Some might think that such totalitarian control over the Internet consumption of convicted sex offenders is a bit harsh for a Western democracy. Perhaps it is, but if so aren't the Government's plans to impinge on the liberties of innocent Australians who have committed no crime an even greater affront to civil liberaties?

As it stands, the Government's current proposal treats the entire Australian population as a band of pedophiles who are so morally irresponsible that they cannot be trusted to stay away from illegal material on their own accord or even with threat of legal sanction. The Government apparently believes that Australians must be physically restrained from consuming illegal material - this can be the only justification for not relying on moral and legal sanctions.

Just how depraved does the Australian Government think we are?

How does the Government think it can maintain such a low opinion of us and stay in office?
Posted by Jon Seymour at 11:59 PM 0 comments
Sunday, November 2, 2008
A summary of recent articles about the filtering proposal
This Wiki on Overclockers provides a good summary of recent articles about the abomination which is Conroy's filtering proposal.
Posted by Jon Seymour at 12:38 PM 1 comments
Wednesday, October 29, 2008
The fundamental objection

Stephen Conroy has stated: "Currently, some material is banned and we are simply seeking to use technology to ensure those bans are working."

I object to the principle that because something is illegal, it must be blocked by technical means. We don't force drunk men in the presence of scantily clad women to be chained to a pole because rape is illegal. We prosecute actual transgressions of the law.

The idea that the Australian public is so perverted that, unless it is physically prevented from doing so, it will become a habitual consumer of child pornography is deeply offensive to me. The Australian Labor Party may have individuals of this type, but I refuse to have this standard applied to me as should other normal Australians.

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honest john
November 28th, 2008

Jon
the Australian Government does know how depraved we are. that is the crux of the whole issue. and its been going on for over 200 years since British contact. the soldiers buried indigenous babies up to their necks a kicked their heads off.they hogtied indigenous men and cut off their genitals and chased them till they bled to death.what they did to indigenous women i cannot repeat.the British have a lot to answer for. some present day Australians and bits are descendants of these bastards.the courts are full of cases of all sorts of unspeakable abuse. Australians must take a good look at themselves past and present. we have a big problem coming over the horizon.

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Elena
November 7th, 2008

Jon, you wrote:

'We don't force drunk men in the presence of scantily clad women to be chained to a pole because rape is illegal. We prosecute actual transgressions of the law.'

I want to point out that being in the presence of scantily clad women does not cause men to choose to rape, or have any influence over a choice to rape. Rape is about power. That analogy is inappropriate in a number of ways.

Firstly, any viewing of child pornography is harmful- it results in the creation of more child pornography.
Secondly, relating sexiness to rape does men and women (and sex!) a disservice.
Thirdly, it would be a good thing if child pornography could be blocked by technical means, as this would remove a market for something that is infinitely cruel and harmful.
It is very clear that this will not be achieved by filtering the internet and the governments idea is incredibly stupid and unhelpful.
However analogies like the above are not helpful either.

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Dan
December 3rd, 2008

"Firstly, any viewing of child pornography is harmful- it results in the creation of more child pornography. "

Restricting supply increases demand.

Under the laws of Supply and Demand more children may be hart in the process.

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Jon Seymour
November 8th, 2008

Elena,

I think you may have misconstrued my analogy. The fact that this has happened indicates that my expression was poor. But let's consider the analogy:

1. freedom to enjoy sexiness <-> freedom to enjoy uncensored access to the Internet

2. rape <-> access to child pornography

3. physically restrain all men to prevent some men raping sexy women "because" they are there <-> censor the Internet for everyone, to prevent some accessing child pornography "because" its there

4. most men don't rape <-> most internet surfers don't view child pornography

5. freedom to enjoy sexiness does not license rape <-> freedom to enjoy uncensored access the Internet does not license access to online child pornography

6. prosecute actual occurrences of rape <-> prosecute actual access to child pornography

7. treat all men as rapists who cannot be trusted to not rape <-> treat all Internet surfers as pedophiles who cannot be trusted to not view child pornography

Is the analogy that I have made explicit here really so objectionable?

I'll expand on this question more discursively in my own blog:

http://broadbannedrevolution.blogspot.com

jon
seymour.

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Jon Seymour
November 8th, 2008

Elena,

I think you may have misconstrued my analogy. The fact that this has happened indicates that my expression was poor. But let's make the analogy explicit.

1. freedom to enjoy sexiness <-> freedom to enjoy uncensored access the Internet

2. rape <-> access to child pornography

3. physically restrain all men to prevent some men raping sexy women "because" they are there <-> censor the Internet for everyone, to prevent some accessing child pornography "because" its there

4. most men don't rape <-> most internet surfers don't view child pornography

5. freedom to enjoy sexiness does not license rape <-> freedom to enjoy uncensored access the Internet does not license access to online child pornography

6. prosecute actual occurrences of rape <-> prosecute actual access to child pornography

7. treat all men as rapists who cannot be trusted to not rape <-> treat all Internet surfers as pedophiles who cannot be trusted to not view child pornography

Is the analogy that I have made explicit here really so objectionable?

I'll expand on this question more discursively in my own blog:

http://broadbannedrevolution.blogspot.com

jon
seymour.

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Jon Seymour
November 7th, 2008

Oops...appear to have cut and paste a little too much of my rant from its source (my blog). Feel free to delete the lines "Posted by Jon Seymour at 11:59 PM 0 comments" down.

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honest john
November 27th, 2008

west Australia has become the last refuge for sex offenders from britain. with the extraordinarily low conviction rate & trivial sentences handed out, there are many networks living &working amongst us .they have infiltrated through the old boy network & have many sympathizers willing to give them a leg up.

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smart blogger
November 7th, 2008

Why should we have to pay money to protect our children from these crepes. Why can't the government catch these sick minded people and fine them for filling the web with filthy images and words.

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Robert
November 7th, 2008

I have just used the Contact page to Suggest a Campaign to Getup.

I cannot see a single good thing that can come out of this national filter, but I can see a lot of bad.

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patrick
November 8th, 2008

Agreed - Where's GETUP's campaign on this!! I expected this issue to be near the top of the Getup Campaign on this yet they've been very silent.... well everyone reading this make sure they have taken action at the campaign the EFA is trying to run (Even if GETUP linked there that would help!!) http://nocleanfeed.com

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Cato59
November 8th, 2008

I believe that this bill, if passed ,would eventually
encourage the Government to censor anything and everything like the Chinese Government did and do to their citizens.
Other words only let you access what they want you to access.
yours,
Cato

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Melissa Short
November 9th, 2008

It seems we cannot rely on many organisations to support the awareness of this internet censorship initiative, I do hope 'getup' starts supporting Australians on this.

Either way, the people are speaking, and we can do this with or without getup, an official petition has been created and it is available to download, sign and mail back in the post, you can also collect signatures, more directions at:

http://www.wakinggiant.org/au_censorship.htm

This
petition is very important, We need at least 20,000 signatures to make an impact, this would equal the same amount of signatures on the original petition that started this barbaric idea, 20,000 well meaning but mis-informed highly vocal religious activists.

Each and every person's support is invaluable to making our case solid, for those of you that are attending the Melbourne protest on the 13th of December, will be able to give me the signatures that they have collected there, otherwise there are postal details in the petition.

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Melissa Short
November 9th, 2008

It seems we cannot rely on many organisations to support the awareness of this internet censorship initiative, I do hope 'getup' starts supporting Australians on this.

Either way, the people are speaking, and we can do this with or without getup, an official petition has been created and it is available to download, sign and mail back in the post, you can also collect signatures, more directions at:

http://www.wakinggiant.org/au_censorship.htm

This
petition is very important, We need at least 20,000 signatures to make an impact, this would equal the same amount of signatures on the original petition that started this barbaric idea, 20,000 well meaning but mis-informed highly vocal religious activists.

Each and every person's support is invaluable to making our case solid, for those of you that are attending the Melbourne protest on the 13th of December, will be able to give me the signatures that they have collected there, otherwise there are postal details in the petition.

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honest john
November 27th, 2008

try http://www.wankinggiant.org/au

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Melissa Short
November 9th, 2008

It seems we cannot rely on many organisations to support the awareness of this internet censorship initiative, I do hope 'getup' starts supporting Australians on this.

Either way, the people are speaking, and we can do this with or without getup, an official petition has been created and it is available to download, sign and mail back in the post, you can also collect signatures, more directions at:

http://www.wakinggiant.org/au_censorship.htm

This
petition is very important, We need at least 20,000 signatures to make an impact, this would equal the same amount of signatures on the original petition that started this barbaric idea, 20,000 well meaning but mis-informed highly vocal religious activists.

Each and every person's support is invaluable to making our case solid, for those of you that are attending the Melbourne protest on the 13th of December, will be able to give me the signatures that they have collected there, otherwise there are postal details in the petition.

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phildeerhound
November 9th, 2008

The link still doesn't work in my repeat of it - sorry

You may have to cut and paste it. The live link doesn't work

Any text after the main address is spurious and should be deleted - that is after the letters "htm"

http://www.wakinggiant.org/au_censorship.htm

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Melissa Short
November 9th, 2008

Sorry not quite sure why it isn't linking...
Try this:
http://www.wakinggiant.org/au_censorship.htm

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anon
November 9th, 2008

Post that set!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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anon
November 9th, 2008

http://www.getup.org.au/blogs/view.php?id=1560

Post
comments, I post this full set.

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anon
November 9th, 2008

NO COMMENT

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pm
November 9th, 2008

this is terrible idea whoever gives the GO AHEAD will regret it almost instantly

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no censorship
November 10th, 2008

I will vote libral next election if the gov goes ahead with this filtering proccess.

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honest john
November 20th, 2008

yeah the libral party is a good place for supporters of child molesters & perverts of child porno

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kate
December 22nd, 2008

Sorry John but apart from being an uneducated tool and possibly troll, you do remember that it was Milton Orkopolous the NSW labor MP who enjoyed raping little boys don't you?

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Mr Han
November 11th, 2008

I dont think its irresponsible for a government to seek to limit the exposure of young people to harm whether it be on the street, at school, at home or on-line. It does fit in somewhere within the government's role and largesse. The thing is of course that any program needs to be very astute, accurate and sustainable. I dont think the 2 senators involved are, by taking this position, basically stupid or in some way misinformed at all. It can be a worthy exploration of our best attempts at least to see what can be done, to learn, to reflect, and to seriously take time effort and resources and put them to what is a believable role for a government that does actually care. Many things that were impossible are not now impossible. As time goes by, fewer things will seem so impossible; and fewer things will be more important than the best outcomes for all our children in a restless all consuming world.

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overkill
December 5th, 2008

Putting aside the fact that the governments internet filtering plans are technically flawed in so many ways. Lets presume for a minute that they weren't.

If the government were to succeed in enforcing every ISP to have in place the mandatory filtering system(s) required to implement there scheme, what stops the government of the day over time enforcing more & more content categories to be restricted against this "enforced" blacklist? This level of filtering is not needed & is not successful ANYWHERE in the world. When I was in china last year I can recall just how restrictive the Internet was there.. You couldn't even view some newspapers from overseas because it conflicted with the regimes interest. However, there were ways around there filters. Also, the speed.. It was woeful & it WAS because of the filter in place.
With this system in place would we be restricted to go online and view a newspaper in Iran because it conflicts with our governments interest? With this system in place all it may take is the signing of a piece of paper in parliament for this to occur..

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Mr Han
November 14th, 2008

Populism is a terrible thing, just ask the people. I've never ahd a great affection for the web. At times its useful but usually I find it to be a bit dismaying. So I'm not a great speaker on behalf of 'the thing' being able to regulate itself. It was only a few months ago when many thought it very wise to let the free market operate without nasty government involvement, pushing hard for the deregulation of all reasonable human standards to support human greed. As for attacks upon 'democracy' per se, well, its a bit like defending patriotism really, isnt it? Each situation needs to be studied and assessed and governments really do have a greater responsibility than they even wish to accept as is; and I don't believe that somehow if a person or even a senator etc has a concern about doing what they can to protect children, they should necessarily be attacked or insulted.

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Mr Han
November 14th, 2008

Populism is a terrible thing, just ask the people. I've never ahd a great affection for the web. At times its useful but usually I find it to be a bit dismaying. So I'm not a great speaker on behalf of 'the thing' being able to regulate itself. It was only a few months ago when many thought it very wise to let the free market operate without nasty government involvement, pushing hard for the deregulation of all reasonable human standards to support human greed. As for attacks upon 'democracy' per se, well, its a bit like defending patriotism really, isnt it? Each situation needs to be studied and assessed and governments really do have a greater responsibility than they even wish to accept as is; and I don't believe that somehow if a person or even a senator etc has a concern about doing what they can to protect children, they should necessarily be attacked or insulted.

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Britomartis
November 11th, 2008

Melissa your link doesn't work.

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tony tayler
November 12th, 2008

This atttempt to censor thoughts and ideas which may be offensive to someone is the antithesis of a free and open democracy. It reeks of cringing fear, prejudice and a control atttempt by the transiently powerful ignorants in our community. Unfortunately, if the course of action proposed by the stupid and ill-informed (though absolutely confident in their prejudicial states) is allowed to continue, it will greatly damage our society.

Presumably they support what "authorities'" attempted to do to Gallileo, Darwin and many other distinguished (and undistinguished) thinkers whose ideas threatened their own prejudices. Everyone, even thee, is entitled to their own thoughts and prejudices, most especially those who ideas differ from or challenge ours.

Let the "bad" idea/ thought/ image/ essay/ poem/ personal interest/ be subject to the blowtorch of public debate to determine its destiny in society, rather than be subject to anonymous, authoritarian suppression.

Even if a majority of society deems a particular idea to be "bad" at a point in time, anyone should be entitled to the quiet, personal, creation, reception, contemplation and enjoyment of any idea, rather than being forcibly denied it.

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PumpkinEater
November 12th, 2008

This whole filter thing defeats the purpose of having high speed broadband, Some of us pay a premium for internet service and we don't want our download or upload speed haldted by some data bottleneck because of the government's filter. That thing will slow broadband speed down by at least 30% which is a hell of a lot..

No I don't support the filter. The other thing is that this equates to censorship. I'm against any and all forms of censorship.

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PumpkinEater
November 12th, 2008

Also a great quote

"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."
— Adolf Hitler


Never mind the fact of who wrote this but this sums up the filter plan IMHO. While the government is distracting everyone and getting everyone worried about their kids, and yes that's a good thing, they can draft these draconian plans and censor the internet, then nect the media, and then magazines, Where do you draw the line?

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James Beattie
November 12th, 2008

C'mon GetUp, this is a blatent issue of freedom of speech and democracy. When the politicians control the flow information, you can sure they won't resist the temptation to use this control to serve their own political purposes.

Lets see a GetUp Campaign on this issue!

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phildeerhound
November 17th, 2008

Dare one point at that GetUp is actually strengthening it's own censorship by employing moderation on some or all blogs before displaying the posts, rather than removing offensive ones after posting?

It's a slippery slope this censorship thing. Much of GetUps credibility stems from the minimal amount of pre display moderation

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Jon Doe
January 15th, 2009

They own the site

The government does not own the internet.

No one does

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Scarred Man
November 26th, 2008

Very Interesting point 'Hound,
if "Filtering"a.k.a. Censoring is the issue at hand, and we are opposed to it, then rightly all the depraved and deranged should be allowed through and then removed by a moderater after AFTER being deemed inappropriate.
And the 'deeming" should ONLY take place in relation to the responses of the people contributing to this forum.
We are adults here. Don't protect us.
We are quite capable of letting the Lunatic fringe know what we think.
And one springs to mind right now..Honest john..
Whats with all this posting mugshots and other pertinent info. Is he angling for some sort of KKK posse style lynching?
Or is he in fact a govt, plant?
Mr Hahn also has me doubting with his measured and well chosen tones.

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Mr Han
November 28th, 2008

I am honoured, Scarred Man, by your comments. The campaign is so unmeasured and its tone is somewhat off. We live with hope that our freedoms will be protected, as we do our children, hoping that we and governments do everything we possibly can. As we know, Governments will try anything to get away from being responsible for anything. This proposal has some value and so is worth supporting.There is nothing in the proposals that shrieks of fascism or control of our undeniably magnificent and shared eventual destinies on sweet planet earth. All there is is some clown from Family First who had a good idea...bewildering as that truly is.It stumped me for quite awhile, but still, it is a good idea, so let's try that. What else is there? Wall Street?

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honest john
November 28th, 2008

scarred man
if you want to know i am an ex-con (30 years ago)who did 4 years for bashing a pedophile. in those days there was no protection for dogs or sex offenders. the prison system give 1st class treatment to these parasites nowadays and has a string of leaches hanging on to protect and council them at great cost to the public. this is where they make contact and from 1 of the biggest mafias on the planet with connections at all levels of society .just look at the stats.

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Alen Lawson
December 4th, 2008

Mate You are so correct. Been in Prison Myself (But only to do Repairs on electronic security). Talked with most inmates and they say the same.

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honest john
December 12th, 2008

to Alen Lawson
thanks buddy for backing me up
some people live in a fantasy world
wait till someone close to them is a victim and then maybe thier tune will change

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Astonished_Perth
November 18th, 2008

GetUp, please start a campaign against this unworkable & ineffective censorship! Don't stay silent! China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Australia.

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Hamish Shaw
November 21st, 2008

Rudd not only speaks Chinese, he thinks he is Chinese. Welcome to the Democratic Police State of Australia.

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Daniel Bower
November 21st, 2008

The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation.
-- Adolf Hitler.

I see this strategy occuring in two fields in Australia at the moment-
1)The intervention in the Northern Territory, where peoples rights, thier HUMAN RIGHTS, have been revoked,just like that, in the name of protecting the children from "widespread" sexual abuse. The evidence for which is quite suspect. The permit system has also been revoked (the system where access to aboriginal land is controlled by the the land councils) Which has nothing to do with child abuse.
2)The ISP level filtering scheme. I fear that this will also lead to filtering not directly related to the protection of children. Our media is becoming evermore homogenous and i find the only place i can catch alternative viewpoints and opinions is the internet. Im not about to sit around while such a precious thing is defacated on by the government.

Come on Get up, get off your bum, We need a campaign.

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honest john
November 28th, 2008

Hitler was a victim of abuse & look what happened.

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Scarred Man
November 26th, 2008

Yay Daniel,
thank God someone understands how important it is to NEVER forget the lessons History has laid for us to learn from.

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david
November 23rd, 2008

This and many of the comments below fail to address adequately the biggest problem with the proposed internet filter. For that reason, they stand to be accused of being "straw man" arguments - arguments at first appealing, but easily demolished by a determined government.
Firstly, the biggest problem: We live in a society where most people believe that we have an honest and open political system that responds to the will of 'the people'. Sadly, more and more (especially under the Howard government) vested interests and big business influence and control our society - by increasing right wing influence in public discourse (especially through lobby groups and the media), by access to government decision making, and by subverting government decision making power to private control (eg 'free trade' agreements).
This problem is easily demonstrated by the lack of public debate about our reasons for going into Iraq - a grand deception easily demonstrated by one document in the public domain, yet never acknowledged in our media - this document shows that the Bush administration was in negotiations with resource corporations around the world, to divide up Iraqs oil - SIX MONTHS BEFORE SEPT 11. (look here: http://www.judicialwatch.org/iraqi-oil-maps.shtml and note the date on the table labeled 'Foreign Suitors for Iraqi OilField contracts part 1' - yes our own BHP is there - presumably doing the bidding of Tigris petroleum - as in the AWB wheatboard scandal. (Note that many Howard ministers had bought shares in the AWB - as reported in the AGE newspaper - after its privatisation by - you guessed it - the Howard government). Howard wrote the terms of reference for the AWB inquiry - Terms of Reference that guaranteed no adverse finding could be made against anyone associated with the Howard government classic government subversion of public debate.
This is the biggest threat from a censored internet - why this is a great threat is demonstrated by one thing - that the list of who/what will be blacklisted will not be available to the public for discussion - Ie complete unaccountability to the public and clearly begging to be used for political/corporate purposes.
This is a much bigger threat than many of the following comments suppose. Whilst it may be easy to subvert the proposed filter in it's present form, no doubt the technology will be refined to block the loopholes. In Australia we already have the most concentrated media ownership in the world, and a corresponding lack of public debate, control of what is publicly debated, and corresponding lack of public awareness. Rupert must be very proud!
Democracy depends on an informed public - if our mainstream media will not do it, we need an uncensored internet!

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honest john
November 26th, 2008

was jackboot jonnys son mixed up with spam??

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Al the Almighty
December 4th, 2008

With Johnny Jack Boots, Who could tell? I think the Whole Family was Spam. Simple Parasites - Australian Minister. Yeah, Works well for me.

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Al the Almighty
December 4th, 2008

With Johnny Jack Boots, Who could tell? I think the Whole Family was Spam. Simple Parasites - Australian Minister. Yeah, Works well for me.

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Elena
November 23rd, 2008

Mr Han, you make some really good points. Get Up seems to be really good at opposing some bad government policies but ignores the underlying (and very real) issues these policies pretend to tackle.

For example child abuse.

Why is Get up not advocating for real action on the safety of indigenous children- for example providing proper services which empower women and their children?

Why is Get Up not advocating for real action against child pornography- for example creating a big internet police force that can seek out, find and prosecute every provider and user?

I have signed petitions and donated money to Get Up in the past but I am now reconsidering my involvement. Get Up has become a really good advocate for the rights of adult men.

I do care, deeply, about your civil liberties. Do you care when my sister and her children lie bleeding?

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honest john
November 28th, 2008

Elena
I care.some people on this blog obviously have led a sheltered life and good luck to them but others havent.
ive seen the brothels in Faukland Road Bombay where children are locked in cages in full view of the public
it is a major road like Bourke street not some hidden back laneway. the same thing happens in Sydney but its out of sight.
the energy put into this debate should directed to this worldwide tragedy.when people talk about freedom and rights it makes my blood boil.get things into perspective.

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Al the Almighty
December 4th, 2008

Back You on this one John. Shameful and tears your heart apart. Wished more people can see the rest of the World as it really is.

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Al the Almighty
December 4th, 2008

Back You on this one John. Shameful and tears your heart apart. Wished more people can see the rest of the World.

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Al the Almighty
December 4th, 2008

Back You on this one John. Shameful and tears your heart apart. Wished more people can see the rest of the World.

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Hamish Shaw
November 24th, 2008

I suggest pre-emptive male castration at birth for all but 1 in 1000 male children. That would fix all the problems we men are alleged to cause, such as child pornography on the internet, whilst allowing enough for breeding through artificial insemination. It would be much more simple to achieve than blocking the internet, and a lot cheaper, whilst not infringing on our freedom of speech.

In irony yours, HS

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Mr Han
November 24th, 2008

Dear Elena, I believe a GetUp campaign against abuse of children would be excellent. Getup has some good campaigns, to be sure. How better to preserve democracy, humanity, here and now than to protect the vulnerable. I'd invest in that...but not in some kerfuffle over internet filters. As for filters, let us indeed see what can be done now. If that helps protect, then that's good.If it dont, well, we can try later. That's what to do with care.
As for Phil's light beams freezing enemy aircraft in the sky, well, yeah, it sounds kinda like fiction...but you should see the remarkable banks of green lasers atop the buildings in Beijing...straight out of the comic books...but damn, they do put a hole in the sky.

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honest john
November 28th, 2008

Mr Han
im with you buddy.whats the stats on child sexual abuse in china

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MR HAN
November 28th, 2008

Honest John, do you mean stats on child abuse throughout China including the bizarre behaviour within the Tibetan monasteries? The Chinese government doesnt keep stats on the goings on within the monasteries. Its called autonomy.

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honest john
November 29th, 2008

han
dont be under any illusion about the fuedal society low caste tibetans lived under.tibet was invaded 1000 years ago by budism.the low caste were indigenous nomads who were enslaved by budist war lords .the tbetan rulers wre very cruel to these origanal inhabitants each family had to give one son to the monestry they were buggered by older monks .tis is where tantric budism comes from . the farmers had to give a quota of grain to the monestry .if not they had their eyes burnt out with a hot poker.read "Meditation on Death" a book given to me by a sri lankan buddist friend of mine. it is shocking reading.
i dont agree withn the violent actions of the chinese regime byut nonetheless some low caste tibetans were please about the chinese invasion.









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phildeerhound
November 24th, 2008

It seems to me, Mr Han, that you have got the cart before the horse - and that this may be the problem in that it suggests you misunderstand the nature and purpose of democracy.

You say: "How better to preserve democracy, humanity, here and now than to protect the vulnerable"

Protecting the vulnerable is not how we "protect democracy" - quite the reverse is the case. Protecting democracy is HOW we protect the vulnerable

You do not protect the weak by the act of weakening democracy. You protect them, first and foremost, by ensuring that no-one tampers with the basic concepts of freedom and democracy by manipulating its communications structures. China would become a democratic country very quickly if its communications were freed up - from internet to broadcasting and printed media. The control of Chinese communications is a cowardly act carried out by an elitist authoritarian government that correctly recognises that the underlying elitist class structure of China would not survive a free media. Its leaders behave in a manner not dissimilar to the Tsarist regime that was Marxism's first successful target.

Communications are the key to the nature of society. In democratic societies communications remain free. Where a Government seeks to monitor and impede them on a universal scale, that Government cannot be fully trusted to serve the concept of "Democratic Government of a free people"

Freedom is indivisible, for the most it is about leaving people alone. the Government does not own the communications media - It is not THEIRS to muck about with.

All I want to do is keep it that way.

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Mr Han
November 28th, 2008

Phil, I dont have a cart. It was repossessed as a result of the devaluation of the Australian dollar.
Its been tough.
The same day I had to eat my horse.
It was tougher.
The government isnt behaving like some fascist regime and deep down everyone knows that.
As I said elsewhere, the fact that Family First came up with a reasonable idea isnt such a bad thing. It is highly likely to be the only one and so should be treated with due respect. Give it a go. That's the Mr Han-Aussie way...

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Disgusted
November 26th, 2008

My daughter has been cyber bullied. Will filtering protect her from this? No, of course it won't. I suggest that this form of internet use has a more profound affect on the individual child than the chance that they may come across a bit of porn on the net. We need to protect our kids from sexual predators but we don't need to protect adults, they have to make their own decisions. This would be a nightmare combination of Nanny state and Dictatorship. The "secret blacklist" would rate alongside control orders and detention without charge as a political gag and tool of unaccountable intelligence and police forces. Come on Rudd, show some backbone and refuse to subscribe to ill thought out social engineering.

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stifled
November 26th, 2008

Not another nanny government bowing to pressure from certain noisy groups! Of course we hate the idea that certain weird people want to harm our children or anybody for that matter but I am sure that all this kind of legislation does is make it more fun trying to find ways around it.Please reconsider who you are trying to protect

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phildeerhound
November 26th, 2008

A few minutes ago I received and signed the GetUp petition against the internet censorship not so great firewall of Australia

I sent GetUp a list of about 100 email addresses of friends I would like notified of this petition- a large percentage of whom I believe will gladly sign it and pass it on

Thank you GetUp - I hope all fellow contributors to this blog will be able to do the same

The petition is on

www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet

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Gaz
November 26th, 2008

I have lived in China for the past few years and have seen the effects of internet censorship and media control first hand. Do Australians want to become trained monkeys? Because that is exactly what will happen if we go down this road. Anyone who wants this for Australia is a traitor to democracy, and needs to go and visit China and talk to the brainwashed trained monkeys on the street to put things into perspective, then commit suicide and remove themselves from the gene pool.

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Alen Lawson
December 4th, 2008

Gaz, Been around the Globe a few times. You are correct. Some Social Engineer somewhere, Thought this was a good Idea. WRONG!!!

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Alen Lawson
December 4th, 2008

Gaz, Been around the Globe a few times. You are correct. Some Social Engineer somewhere, Thought this was a good Idea. WRONG!!!

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Verdigris
November 26th, 2008

The aim of all governments is to control the governed to a greater or lesser degree. There were quite a few religious nutters (ie anti-sex league freaks in Orwellian terms)in the Howard government and probably as many in the Labor Government. Religious conviction should be kept out of politics in a secular society, where religion is tolerated only as long as it keeps its crazy ideas to itself. Sex and pornography are "good's" for many people and the yoke of religion that seeks a sex free society should be resisted. So called family values are important but a great many citizens are not married with children and are unconcerned about keeping the Internet 'safe'. Freedom of speech and expression is far more important than dealing with the relatively tiny problem of pornography that worries the likes of Steve Fielding. While the present government condones the murder of children in Iraq, Afghanistan and Israel, using public money to prosecute colonial wars, it hypocritically condemns sexual freedom at home as some kind of equivalent evil. The far right Christian minority in Australia needs to be kept in check or the police state ushered in by John Howard will be continued Under Kevin Rudd. All public servants and politicians should be screened for inappropriate religious views in aid of maintaining a safe secular society. A free and uncontrolled Internet is essential in a dasngerous world where totalitarian control lurks in every corner of business and government. Conroy should attend to the majority view that the Internet should not be managed by the government.

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Objective
November 26th, 2008

Why would/should the internet be any different in cenorship to that of any other media in Australia ..think about it, what makes the internet a special case for exemption? There is so much misleading and exaggerated information being propergated by the likes of this site that it is difficult for the average person to have an objective view other than that of a self interested ISP

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anonymous
November 26th, 2008

TOO MUCH BIG BROTHER...I believe that the internet should be thought of as a library/bookstore, if you do not like the book then do not pick it up. If you accidentally wander into a pub do you walk out in disgust or have a look around? If you go to the movies do you see the R-rated horror movie or go and see Wall-E? It all comes down to choice - Freedom of Choice - is what we have a right to here in Australia! If you are a parent then you should also be vigilant. Would you leave an R rated horror movie or a XXX-rated movie lying around for a 5 year old to pick up and watch? I DON'T THINK SO... Net Nanny, Cyber Surf, etc already offer protection to those parents who believe that what is on the internet should be monitored for young minds. I do not believe that the Government should be involved in this at all!!! EXCEPT in that they ensure that the Education Department are always running up to date software that protects our children while they are using equipment on-site/on-campus.

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PurpleFae
November 26th, 2008

Hi, I'm a rally coordinator for the upcoming rallies against internet censorship. Here's the details for anyone interested in attending:

Accurate as of 26/11/08-

RALLIES NATIONALLY- 13th of December

Brisbane:
13th of December
11am - 3pm
Brisbane Square
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=42526399601

Sydney:
13th
of December
11am-4pm
Town Hall
www.nocensorship.info (this is the only place you can find the organisers)

Melbourne:
13th of December
12pm-5pm
State Library
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=46838735931

Adelaide:
13th
of December
12pm - 4pm
Parliament
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=39343300875


Hobart:
13th
of December
11am-1:30pm
Parliament Lawns
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=39329861995

ACT:
13th
of December
TBA

Perth:
13th of December
12pm-3:00pm
Stirling Gardens
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=45738419714

Darwin:
Interested
in being the state coordinator for this rally?
Email/MSN me: jas.anticensorship @gmail.com


Direct Action Planning Sites:
www.nocensorship.info
www.nocleanfeedforum.com
<-- Mainly Melbourne.

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fms
November 26th, 2008

Having been employed in a workplace that had an Internet filtering system in place, I can attest to the fact that many legitimate sites can be blocked on the basis of "sensitive" keywords ... like "gay". Blocked, unblocked due to human feedback, blocked again, repeat ad nauseum. Community sites, online magazines and other sites were blocked on the basis of the target audience (gay vs straight people) not their content. I mean, everyone knows that "gay" = "porn", right?

Please, no!

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downonthatnoway
November 26th, 2008

I am really concerned about the Australian governments paranoid obsession with 'security' and see this proposal as nothing more than appeasing an ill informed electorate to justify a whole lot of wasted resources that will deliver shortcomings to the Australian economy with slower internet for a start. I believe the onus is on parents to protect their children. lets encourage that kind of practice insteadand empower parents and kids to use the internet in healthy ways.

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Jim AntiWebSiteBan
November 26th, 2008

Ha ha, so johhnny government wants to come down hard on us users of the internet.
By the way government, did you design the internet? no.
Did you have anything in the entire process of operating the internet, NO.

So keep your grubby hands of the internet, it is a world wide electronics utility, I'll admit there are some people who go out of their way to access p0rn, shame to them and hope you catch them.

The internet is the modern library of the world, so leave it well enough alone, you lot wern't voted in at the last election to meddle in it, hands off.

Mabe you lot don't want the good people to know about CHEMTRAILS (all over australia) or Alternatite Energy like on overunity (google it and see why they want to ban web sites, I bet they are on the hit list).

Speaking of hitlists, what is the secret list that they have which contains the banned sites, I havent seen one yet, dosent mean it dosent exist.
So show everyone the list that bans web sites.




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Chris Jacobson
November 27th, 2008

Whilst I understand the frustration associated with filtering the net, and to a degree I am with you, there is a banned list that does exist, and as I am associated with the filetring industry and must comply with the ACMA regulations, I can assure you it does exist and at my last count was at about 853 sites, not the 1300 often quoted by the misinformed. Regards

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ACE MCINTOSH
November 26th, 2008

PEOPLE THAT USE THE INTERNET FOR GOOD PURPOSES COULD ACTUALLY ASSIST THE GOVERNMENT BY CATCHING THE CHILD PORN DOWNLOADING FREAKS IN ACTION AND IDENTIFY THEM, GPS TRACK THEM,PERHAPS SET UP A MONITORING SYSTEM.YOU NAME IT THERE ARE WAYS THE GOVERNMENT JUST NEEDS TO BE SHOWN HOW.THEN THEY MAY GET SOME POSITVE FEEDBACK FOR ONCE.CHEERS

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Mr Han
November 28th, 2008

Well said ACE. If people care there's no end to the good that can be done. That's a worthy campaign.

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ACE MCINTOSH
November 26th, 2008

er sorry POSITIVE FEEDBACK is what i meant yeh!

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honest john
November 26th, 2008

ACE now your talking
i propose a bounty on these parasites
next post their Mugshot current address ID details on the net

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superfred
November 26th, 2008

Conroy you cretin!! get out of my lounge room!!!

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Mick
November 26th, 2008

Given Conroys views on abortion and euthanasia there won't be too much pressure from other areas it will come from within the righ wing of the ALP to add additional categories.

This is very disturbing, I thought the over the top anti terrorism legislation (sure you gotta have laws in this area but not what we ended up with) was an attack on our personal freedom but they pale compared to this. Yes what is proposed will certainly be the thin end of the wedge.



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Tessa
November 26th, 2008

This is completely ridiculous. Yet again they governments are looking towards what they see as quick fix solutions which in reality do nothing to solve the porblem at hand.
also there is risk of the due to certain people in charge and there personal views, things which don't necessarily need to be censored at all.

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Zeitgeist Addendum
November 26th, 2008

Just another feeble attempt by politicians to take Australia further down the path towards Fascism! Doesn't matter which government is in power. "Wake Up Australia & Stand Up For Yourself"!
zeitgeistmovie.com

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vian
November 26th, 2008

Last I heard, the Greens will oppose this piece of silliness; doesn't that mean it can't pass? Or is there something I'm missing?

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Luke
November 29th, 2008

I threw my vote away on the Green candidates in the last election. Good on them. :)

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Gordon
November 26th, 2008

Legislation can pass the senate if

a) ALP + Greens + Independents support it

b) ALP + Coalition support it.

Even if Greens oppose a particular piece of legislation, b) is possible.

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Gordon Brown
January 15th, 2009

This legislation is so unpopular that even if they passed it the senate they would suffer immense protest that it would never happen.
The effects would damage the internet so badly that the business sector would lose international competitiveness due to reduced speed.

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fifers
November 26th, 2008

What you're missing is the Broadcasting Services Act, Schedules 5 & 7, which mean the government doesn't have to pass any law at all to implement this.

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vian
November 27th, 2008

Well, shit. But surely there's no way the Coalition would support it? The way they are acting at the moment, if the ALP put up a bill for free puppies the Libs would oppose it on principle.

Of course, if they can bypass the political process altogether, that's a whole new level of worry.

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mario
November 26th, 2008

This is another prime example of big brothers, problem, reaction, solution, costing people there freedom again, it's a genome that should not be on this planet.
for more big brother news visit - http://www.marioserra.net

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Carlton Lane
November 26th, 2008

I am very ANGRY and it it just gets more intense. This is a foul betrayal of our basic democratic rights by the Labor government, who I had voted for thinking that freedom of the Net would be respected. If this plan goes through, Labor (and whoever else votes for it) will have me as an enemy for life. Why shouldn't an Australian adult have the freedom to decide what they want see as they do in America and the rest of the "free" world? This must not be allowed to pass.

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honest john
November 26th, 2008

the USA does not allow live streaming to aliens including Australia.so much for the rest of the free world.

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Tom Bickley
November 26th, 2008

Senator Stephen Conroy - The Rudd Government earned a mandate to govern Australia, not censor Australia. You promised prior to, during and after the elections to introduce ultra fast Broadband connections for private and Business users alike! Now you are going to slow it down by up to 70% and it seems, for the most parlous reasons . . You! You think you, know what a Democracy needs. This type of thinking is NOT DEMOCRATIC ! In-fact it smells like Coonanism at her worst!

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Anthony
November 26th, 2008

I am SO angry about this. I also feel cheated, having helped bring Labor into government at the last election. I really thought I had gone beyond having to feel embarrassed and ashamed of my country, but it seems we are here all over again.

This nasty piece of legislation must not be allowed to pass. Once the door is open to internet censorship, who knows what the government will block us from accessing?? And once the filtering is up and running, who knows how slow the internet will become?? Doesn't the government realise that the modern economy depends on a fast, open internet, especially when we are on the cusp of a recession?

I will not be voting Labor at the next election, nor will I be preferencing them. We clearly have a stupid government.

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Adam
December 6th, 2008

This sums up my feelings exactly.

When I voted for a Labor government, I did not vote for censorship!

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Tom Bickley
November 26th, 2008

I would like to direct this post to 'Disappointed'. Why won't you come out and sign your name? What about supporting your cynicism and identify yourself? Ashamed of your politics, worried about copping a lashing? I've supported GETUP for years - I've no truck for Militant Unionism or Party Politics - GETUP gives me a voice, you give me the creeps!

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David B
November 26th, 2008

Ain't it grand to live in a democracy? What happened to freedom of speech, freedom of choice and freedom of the press? Are we not able to decide for ourselves what is appropriate content rather than have the Nanny State make these decisions on our behalf? Who is to say what will be deemed 'inappropriate content' next month, next year - or next election?

This is not a forward or progressive step for this country to be taking by any means.

Wouldn't it be better for families to decide if they want their internet filtered at a local level or better still, supervise minors when they surf the net.

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honest john
November 28th, 2008

this bullshit about families deciding what is filtered. most child sex abuse come from within the families.

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Scarred Man
November 26th, 2008

G'Day Mates,
I know we all all want the best protection for our children, but letting the govt control OUR greatest tool and asset, The Internet, is not going to help one iota.
I have long been on record as stating that no service has more greatly enducated, and thereby empowered the everage man and woman throughout all our history.
Never before have we the people had greater access to knowledge, truth, and above all each other.

In the past we only saw what the Rulers allowed to be printed, often months, maybe even years after the events had happened. These days events enter our home within moments and hours of happening, and from sources far removed from govt. control, thereby lending greater veracity to the claims.

News and current affairs you would NEVER see in the Nightly TV News, or local daily.

How many of us have put our name to "global e-mail" intended to stop injustice/crime in some foreign country? Or just simply to aid an innocent get much needed medical help? How many of us now contribute to humanitarian causes that we only became aware of because of our unfetted access to the Internet?
Just idly doodling away as was our wont.

Need info. on the rock band, the Sex Pistols?? Some medical info. about your private parts? Planning a trip to Essex in England and want to plan ahead?
Forget it under this new scheme.

The internet will become just another Pay Per View media outlet, filtered and controlled.
The Internet is the "Greatest Neighbourhood Watch" bar none.

So do your bit to keep "our neighbourhood" FREE from Communist style State control!!!

If we truly want to eradicate paedophilia, domestic violence etc. then we as an educated enlightened society must do it together from within our own hearts and minds.
Not by dictatorial govt. censorship.

It is my personal belief that this type of control measure will only exacerbate the problem and make prosecution even harder, because it will not end, it will simply be driven ever deeper into the human sewer.

If you doubt, check up on how Alcohol prohibition turned various Mafia clans into millionairs

Besides;-
Filtering out inapropriate material/behaviour is the sole responsibility of Parents worthy of the title.
Jim Scott

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Anthony
November 26th, 2008

[I have long been on record as stating that no service has more greatly enducated, and thereby empowered the everage man and woman throughout all our history.]

Which is why the government wants to control it. The vested interests don't like people power - they maintain power by controlling information, and have always done so.

This is why this legislation has to be stopped. And frankly, I can't even believe we are facing this issue in a country like Australia.

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Carlton Lane
November 26th, 2008

Why the near total silence in the mainstream media about this critical issue? Do they intend to let the Rudd government have a free pass on this? Where are the "watchdogs of democracy"?

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Yaketty
November 26th, 2008

Oh dear - the Nanny state that is WA looks like being well & truly overshadowed if such Medieval policy becomes law. The cyber crims, the bored, the corrupt and the clever must be rubbing their hands with glee at the challenge, and it would be an incentive to our most tech-savvy to join the brain drain overseas where such nonsense isn't tolerated.

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Teacher with first hand experience
November 26th, 2008

As a teacher I know first hand the nightmare that this type of censorship creates. The NSW Department of Education has implemented a farce they call the "PORTAL" which supposedly filters illegal or inappropriate material from students and staff.
In practice what it actually filters amounts to about 60% of legitimate educational material, while allowing a myriad of flash gaming sites that students seem to end up on through frustration.
For a teacher this is incredibly frustrating as you will prepare a lesson based on sites you visit only to find most of the students can't view the sites as they are "BLOCKED" sites. Some of these sites such as Dick Smith Electronics are blocked due the work "dick" being in the content.
To subject Australians who pay good money to use the "world wide web" to such a system is a direct infringement of our civil liberties and an insult to our intelligence. As free thinking adults we should reject this proposal outright. I believe it is the parent's job to ensure their children do not view inappropriate material not a nanny-centric government bureaucracy.

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Scarred Man
November 26th, 2008

timely Comment teacher,

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Scared Man
November 26th, 2008

Censorship is alive and active right here in this forun.
I wrote a helluva lot more to 'teacher"
With only one sweer word that was punctured with***, yet only the first 3 words appear.
As Summner Miller would have said..'Why is this so"'

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Guy`
November 26th, 2008

" Our government should be doing all in its power to take Australia into the 21st century economy, and to protect our children "

WHAT,,? 21 century economy ?
Are there people still believing in the future of dead corps ?
In fact we are where we are because we have allowed to concentrate on an economy INSTEAD of a sound society

Economies are the field of technocrates,accountants, psychopaths.BANKERS
Societies are built by humanists, utopians, philosophs where the future of the children is always in the equations.

The INTENTIONAL disolving of the present economies is just
a new phase toward a global fascism like in the 30's
Only this time the hands behind Hitler decided to do it with a multi/puppets show

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Ms Naughty
November 26th, 2008

I'm going to come in and make the point that people are afraid to make: why should the government have the right to stop us from viewing adult material?

Yes folks, I'm talking porn. NO, not child porn - that's just the straw man thrown up to distract people from the fact of censorship. I'm talking about the legal adult material that is enjoyed by up to 70% of Australian adults.*

The internet has allowed adults to enjoy sexually explicit material without the board of classification poking its nose in or giving its stamp of approval. The world hasn't come to an end because people have been able to watch porn in the privacy of their own homes. Australians have been able to make their own decisions about what they want to watch without outside forces imposing their morals. This is a GOOD thing.

And the internet has provided the opportunity to create and access adult material that is sex positive, queer and female-friendly, inclusive, realistic and non-exploitative.

So yes, aside from all the perfectly good reasons for opposing the mandatory filter, we should be standing up for our right as adults to choose what content we wish to see - and that includes websites/movies etc dealing with sex in an explicit way.

Australians are, on the whole, pretty open minded about sex but we won't speak up for ourselves on this topic. This has allowed the prudes and religious groups to lobby loudly and impose their morals on everyone else.

And we should be asking ourselves: why do we get so upset about sex but not bat an eyelid when it comes to violence? Why is sex so rigidly controlled by governments and the church?

Obviously children should not be exposed to inappropriate material. That's what Net Nanny is for. That's what "parenting" is supposed to be about. But the internet shouldn't have to be reduced to to the level of a five year old in the interests of protecting children.

So I've mentioned the elephant in the room but it needs to be said. If you take porn off Australians, they're gonna be very, very cross. And we should stand up and say that.

* http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSSYD17488820070301

PS
Apologies if this is a double post, I got no confirmation after hitting send last time...

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John1967
November 26th, 2008

The internet is all about the distribution and free flow of information and ideas. Putting filters on the net will create roadblocks and stifle the fre flow of information because you don't know whether or not what you send will be received, or intercepted by 3rd parties in government who don't want to encourage free thought, and in some cases an opposing POV.....

The filters are not about protection but information control

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honest john
November 26th, 2008

how about some suggestions by geeks on how to combat these maggots. gates employed a lot of hackers maybe they have some positive ideas. or do we do nothing except criticize people with good intentions

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James Bennett
January 15th, 2009

Yes anyone who supports a free working internet is a geek.
Good intentions can destroy the world.
We criticize because they plan is flawed and the Labor party as well as the rest of Australia needs to know how.

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Sandy Cracks
November 26th, 2008

Useless and expensive. I have worked in IT for well over a decade now in all parts of the world, from my experience this sort of filtering never works. It encourages children to search out things they're not supposed to see as a challenge instead of it being available freely and therefore left alone. I think parents who are worried about what their kids are seeing on the internet should take responsibility for their own households and keep an eye on what their kids are doing online. If they can't trust their kids to do the right thing, take the internet away from them. the rest of the adults in Australia should be free to view, download and share what ever they see fit. It is, after all, a free country isn't it?

Peer to peer networks can't be filtered, this is where most kiddie porn is trafficked. Monitoring these networks would be money better spent... and easier.

These new laws also allow the Government to ban sites that IT DEEMS UNSUITABLE... without consultation of the public and without creating a list... How would we know what information we're being starved of?

Going to far Rudd... I thought he was smart until this week.

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honest john
November 26th, 2008

why not have a statuary body run a service provider for uncensored sites
then it would be easier to monitor the deviates

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John1967
November 27th, 2008

But doesn't that just create another layer of beauracracy. what a waste.

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Gonzo
November 27th, 2008

There has been no evidence of detremental effect from open access to the internet. Instances of child abuse usually come from the family or friends of the family. Internet filtering is something to pander to the Christian right to take us back to the Victorian era of repression and
totalitarian governments. Adults have a right to decide what they view but the conservative forces can't stand the fact that the internet circumnavigates the putrid powers of the OFLC in relation to literature and film. With this new outrage of filtering the internet they are doomed to failure and instead waste our money and resources. Conroy needs to be reminded that we live in a democracy and not China.

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honest john
November 27th, 2008

"Adults have a "right" to decide what they view" says who??
we have censorship laws regarding all other forms of media. the jails are full of "Adults" who cannot be trusted in a "free society".

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Tom Brant
November 27th, 2008

An open letter to Kevin.......

Hi Kevin.....
Right up there with the Economy, the Education Revolution and Climate Change is freedom of thought and the continuing propensity of governments to remove, or attempt to remove, the responsibility for life from adult citizens. I refer to your ill considered proposal to filter internet content at ISP level.
Quite apart from further choking an already slow and kludgey system your proposal is next to useless and relatively easily circumvented. And be aware that for whatever filters are put in place, whatever new filtering technologies are developed there will always be a host of feisty young geeks looking to buck, circumvent and break the system. Like the rolling war on all things viral and hacking your sifting proposal is destined to plunge Australian technology into an endless loop of filter and counter filter that can only add further to the burden of technological and resource bloat that already oppresses the Australian internet.
Further to the technological issues are philosophical considerations of the right of adult individuals to exercise responsibility and decision in the course of their day to day lives. Increasingly governments are moving away from defending the freedom of the individual to defending the tendency of small minorities with narrow values and vested interests to control the thoughts and actions of the rest of society. Certainly we make laws from time to time to protect individuals in society and it’s the responsibility of individuals to uphold those laws. But it is not the responsibility of governments to allow small bands of narrow-minded zealots to encase individuals in virtual straitjackets foreign to their own way of thinking.
Kevin, the only effective internet filtering occurs at individual level. Please, take the hundreds of millions of dollars it’s going to cost you to fund an ineffective system and put that money into convincing society to eschew those sites you don’t want them to see. Please keep our society free and protect us from the China model.

Most Sincerely,
Tom Brant
(an IT professional)

PS: I know Kevin is never going to see this, guys. But please, let Kevin become aware of these points. I’d hate to see the Labour government we’ve fought so hard for be bogged down and defeated by an attempt at patronizing censorship more appropriate to the far right of politics.

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dav
November 27th, 2008

The proposals of censorship of the net reek of fascist laws proposed by Goebbels ( and implemented) in Nazi Germany (the intent of censorship to be a NANNY to citizens). I am amazed that the Rudd Government actually proposes to be serious about this ridiculous proposal which takes Australia back to the dark ages, and does nothing to correct the situation which it supposes to address. The whole world (including many African countries previously under Shackles proposed by Conroy) moves towards more freedom, and this country in its idiotic big brother mentality, moves towards curbing of citizens' freedom, pandering to minority religion led narrow minded groups who will not be satisfied with anything less than all of us being in chastity belts and hands handcuffed in prayer. I am ashamed that Australia has even reached a point where we consider such law proposals seriously!!

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Anthony
November 27th, 2008

Phil... my greatest fear is that you might be right. I also noticed the media's complete silence on this issue and therefore wondered what vested interest they had in internet censorship/surveillance. You've answered that question.

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Ron B.
November 27th, 2008

It's been noticed by some of us and has actually been mentioned in the Parliament this past week that the Feds are acting like their state collegues. Namely the secrecy and refusing to answer questions in both houses( respo nding to a question is NOT answering it). This attack on the internet almost appears to b modeled on the Chinese Controlled internet.
It couldn't possible that Malcolm Turnbulls accusations in the house that Kevin Rudd is attempting to run Australia like Chairman Mao ran China could possibly have some depth?
Alas ,We will never know the truth because Rudd Et al consistantly refuse to answer questions and everything is being cloaked in secrecy.

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oldbiggles
November 27th, 2008

Surely the answer lies in identifying truly inappropriate websites and making all attempts to permanently close them down. I realise this in itself is a very difficult and perpetual task, but it seems to me that the answer lies in enforcing self regulation on hosting services around the world. It would no doubt require international cooperation to create an environment where hosting services must close (without notice or repayment of fees) sites identified by an international regulatory organisation - hosting services which do not comply would face a mandatory cripling financial penalty. Continuing non-compliance should lead to that hosting service being blocked. Is it possible that all hosting services in Countries which do not subscribe to the ideals of the international regulators be blocked from the net.

Perhaps this is oversimplistic (and maybe as technically impossible as the proposed scheme) , but I feel that any censorship of website content should be based on a democratic consensus by a representative international organisation and not by individual administrations acting unilaterally

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jk
November 27th, 2008

What ever happened to parents being responsible for their own children. Installing Net nanny or something like that.

Are we becomming a communits country???

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Ms Naughty
November 27th, 2008

I'm going to come in and make the point that people are afraid to make: why should the government have the right to stop us from viewing adult material?

Yes folks, I'm talking porn. NO, not child porn - that's just the straw man thrown up to distract people from the fact of censorship. I'm talking about the legal adult material that is enjoyed by up to 70% of Australian adults.*

The internet has allowed adults to enjoy sexually explicit material without the board of classification poking its nose in or giving its stamp of approval. The world hasn't come to an end because people have been able to watch porn in the privacy of their own homes. Australians have been able to make their own decisions about what they want to watch without outside forces imposing their morals. This is a GOOD thing.

And the internet has provided the opportunity to create and access adult material that is sex positive, queer and female-friendly, inclusive, realistic and non-exploitative.

So yes, aside from all the perfectly good reasons for opposing the mandatory filter, we should be standing up for our right as adults to choose what content we wish to see - and that includes websites/movies etc dealing with sex in an explicit way.

Australians are, on the whole, pretty open minded about sex but we won't speak up for ourselves on this topic. This has allowed the prudes and religious groups to lobby loudly and impose their morals on everyone else.

And we should be asking ourselves: why do we get so upset about sex but not bat an eyelid when it comes to violence? Why is sex so rigidly controlled by governments and the church?

Obviously children should not be exposed to inappropriate material. That's what Net Nanny is for. That's what "parenting" is supposed to be about. But the internet shouldn't have to be reduced to to the level of a five year old in the interests of protecting children.

So I've mentioned the elephant in the room but it needs to be said. If you take porn off Australians, they're gonna be very, very cross. And we should stand up and say that.

* http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSSYD17488820070301

**
I posted this last night, it didn't appear. Hopefully it will get through the filter this time.

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Bugger Me Sensorless
November 27th, 2008

Amen to that! As an adult I have a right to choose whether or not I want to watch people having sex. They're adults. I'm an adult. I don't force you to video tape yourself having sex, don't you force your version of a moral life on me. I'm a good person and I can make my own decisions, thank you.

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Barney
November 27th, 2008

Well said mate, it's taken 16 blogs to get to your point number 8). All it takes is parental supervision. My children were always supervised, and we as a family dealt with cyber bullying and inappropriate web sites as a learning experience. My boys didn't become lonely, suicidal, depressed drug addicted morons because they learned to laugh at the scared little imature cowardly cyber bullies, and even giggled at some of the "b..bies" online. The point is they learned how to ignore most of the useless information out there, and still have fun with their friends on the chat lines.

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Ms Naughty
November 27th, 2008

Statistics Laundering: false and fantastic figures
http://libertus.net/censor/resources/statistics-laundering.html

Libertus
has an amazing article which reveals that most of the statistics about child porn used to justify ISP filtering do not have any basis in fact.

Take the time to read just this section:
http://libertus.net/censor/resources/statistics-laundering.html#summary

The
hysteria surrounding the alleged "explosion" of CP is the excuse most often used to justify censorship of legal sexual material. And yet this article reveals that, while CP remains a problem that needs to be stamped out, its not nearly as large a threat as politicians and lobby groups make it out to be.

I do understand that by pointing this out, I'll be labelled "indecent" and a supporter of CP and all those things that Mr Conroy likes to say. But we need to start talking about FACTS here.

Thanks to Libertus for posting the article.

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IT worker
November 27th, 2008

Censorship like this is created by people who have no idea or no life.

Should we ban every book written as it might have something which the reader does not agree with. It is the same principle here.

The Government is not a "Parent" to the people and should not try to act like one. We already suffer from the dumbing down of our society after the Howard years. I thought the Labor Government was to be more open, rather then being Liberal with a little "L".

As with everything those who want access will find a way. Nothing the Government can do will really stop that.

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Nathan
November 27th, 2008

The government is trying to censor the net again? That trick never works. As others have already said parents should exercise what their children see on the net.

The government should know better than trying to control what everyone sees. Where is the democracy in that?

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John1967
November 27th, 2008

What you mean the government has tried this before?

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fifers
November 27th, 2008

I believe the previous Government attempted something like this on 3 or 4 occasions, each of which was sponsored by US Christian Fundamentalist controlled censorship companies.

The previous Government ordered the Tasmanian tests, for example.

Governments have been forced to back down in the past, by the Internet Industry and Civil Libertarians. But this time the Government has made it a major policy issue, so it needs much more public involvement in petitions, in letter writing, and in protests to stop this idiocy.

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LukeRevolution
November 27th, 2008

Maybe the US fundies are trying to establish censorship in Australia where there is no freedom of speech protections. If they can't make people do what they want in their own country they'll go and pick on someone else, like a typical schoolyard bully. If they can get it to fly here they might be able to import it back to the USA.





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Octarine
November 27th, 2008

How about upping the signature target? Maybe up to 1,000,000+. It probably wouldn't take too long at the current rate. The Govt might (maybe?) listen if that many people register. 25,000 is just a statistical blip.

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Elena
November 27th, 2008

Protests are being organised around Australia on December 13th. See www.stopthecleanfeed.com for details of times and dates in your city.

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chris
November 27th, 2008

Here I was thinking that GetUp was just a Labor Party propaganda machine. Thanks for proving me wrong.

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Ms Naughty
November 27th, 2008

http://www.myspace.com/nocleanfeed - has a list of protest sites. For some reason stopthecleanfeed.com isn't working at present.

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AlexWebleyNet
November 27th, 2008

I am very much against this censorship plan.
Earlier this year (May) I wrote a couple of blog posts about the issue: you can find links to them here:
http://alexwebley.net/2008/11/12/backlash-australian-net-censorship/


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PK
November 27th, 2008

I'm embarrassed to be an Aussie - again.

First it was the Howard regime. Now Conroy is making an ass of us all. I till have hope for Rudd, but not all his henchmen are up for the job. Conroy needs to be KFC'd reall quick (Kicked From Clan).

fail.

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Chairman Rudd the tyrant to be
November 27th, 2008

Government cannot be trusted. They are no better than us. If a government takes away our rights to read information which we are entitled to under a democracy then that government is undemocratic and theoretically illegal to be in office. This filtering system that the government is pushing for is kind of like fining every driver because some drivers break the rules. Mean while, reckless drivers keep breaking rules and get away with it. This is a reasonable analogy in my opinion. If GetUP is against filtering then why don't they do as others suggest? If this muck was happening in Canada, thousands would be protesting on the street.

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rus
November 27th, 2008

I cannot fathom this. As someone who works for an oversea's company remotley but who has to upload designs everyday (100mb +), why is this supposedly 'progressive' government trying to put up obstacles to online/new media workers during such troubled economic times... Stephen Conroy is a true disgrace

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ettrick
November 27th, 2008

Censorship stinks at all levels apart from child pornography and anything pertaining to paedophilia (except clinical material, discussions etc).To start something like this is the thin edge of the wedge and AUSTRALIA complains about Internet censorship in the likes of China - how hypocritical are our government and not just with censorship. What can be more pornographic than our Prime Minister eating his ear wax in public - it will be snot next!

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podge
November 27th, 2008

need an additional campaign to have Sen. Conroy sacked for gross stupidity.

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Danny
November 27th, 2008

!WARNING! FYI Be Aware of the following:

Folks, this is not for our protection, but to make it easier to control & manipulate us!

The aim of this, is to able able to control, what the masses get to read/ view, see & hear!

The 'Protect the Children', is just a smokescreen, to cover the real agenda...

Be forewarned...

You can be assured, that most likely ALL safe natural remedies sites, compared to toxic artificial high profit drugs, which of course, generate huge $$$ profits, are gonna be suppressed, to prevent people from getting access to FACTS!!

There will be many others like it...

People aren't supposed to know about secret societies that are in operation out there, the secret government, which is working behind the scenes, these are the REAL reasons these entities are determined, to keep the sheeple in ignorance, on what is truly going on out there!!...

Those who have the money $$$ have the power!

Something to be aware of!

Indeed this is deliberate Censorship presented under the guise/ smokescreen of 'protecting our children', which of course is the parents basic responsibility anyway!

Be forewarned on this!!...



What a total waste of money!!...

Do parents deliberately allow their young kids to watch late night movies, filled with violence??

This basic principle applies to the Internet too, of course.

Who does Conroy like us to be, dumb uninformed sheeple??

Obviously this is really about being able to control & manipulate people easier & being able to control what one reads, hears & sees!

I wonder if Conroy is a member of a Secret Society, oh people aren't supposed to know of their existence!!

The 'Bohemian Grove' for example...

Those members belonging to these Secret Societies, wouldn't be to keen, to be exposed of their secret (wicked) activities!!

They don't like people getting access to FACTS, hence the push for this!

BE FOREWARNED...

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grave danger
November 27th, 2008

I agree with Colin Jacobs. My great fear is if the Government continues on its current path that any pressure group could exert pressure for filtering of their dislike. To beat the rush I would like to request that any political (especially Family First) or religious matter is filtered from reaching me. They are two of the most destructive forces, especially when it comes to the safety of children.

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truthwillout
November 27th, 2008

My my...
Hysteria sure is infectious.
Okay we know that there will be some nanny hysteria on this issue.Luddites for ever etc...
But we are talking here about a policy(cybersafety) for which there is basically bipartisan support (reflecting one would assume community support).A survey conducted by AC Nielsen and commissioned by Child Wise - an Australian organisation working to prevent sexual abuse - of around 1,500 internet users, found 83 percent believed that ISPs should block all child pornography, 76 per cent would change to an ISP that blocked child pornography and 64 per cent were not confident that home-based internet filters were effective.A live trial is proposed.The decision (again one hopes...) will be debated intelligently.Overseas various filtering alternatives HAVE been intelligently debated in forward thinking democracies.
If you are saying we cannot be trusted to look at the evidence and have the debate here in Australia...
Well excuse me your paranoia is showing.,,Not to mention your sudden fondness for economic competitiveness at the cost of social responsibility (hats not abusive- I just thought you might like to know).
Shame Getup shame....

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Nevyn
November 28th, 2008

I've never seen bipartisan support for this plan. The ALP went to the election with a proposal for optional family friendly filters. We now have a proposal to filter "unwanted content', unwanted by who? A secret blacklist of things we're never allowed to see, decided by an unknown group with their own agendas? If that doesn't ring alarm bells already, you then have the added problems of over/under blocking coupled with the cippling of internet speeds.

Furthermore these filters will nto stop one incident of child abuse, so they have already failed in tehir stated purpose, no overseas democracy has implemented compulsory filtering, the only countries with comparable compulsory filtering are China, North Korea etc.

As to how a survey of 1500 individuals by a group known to use misleading and falese statistics to back their claims (read this for the proof http://libertus.net/censor/resources/statistics-laundering.html) can be considered an authoritive indication of the public view....

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Luke
November 29th, 2008

Getup will be first on the blacklist for opposing this. That will make them child porn enablers (or some such s--t).

This filter will play straight to child pornographers hand. The technically illiterate will say: 'There, that's the end of that. Now that we've stamped out child pornography we can all sit back and relax.' In the mean time child abusers will have a free reign until the government realises in a few years time that the filter did nothing.

Rudd said he was going to bring the internet up to world standard speeds, instead he's gonna put us back to less than dial up.

I'm all for ISP offering this to people who think it's a good idea. Let the frightened bogans have their internet watered down. I'll have mine straight up!

Great article.

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Prott
November 27th, 2008

Dear getup,
You have redeemed yourselves with this campaign. You are not some alp toady. I have donated to the cause. Than Q!

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Ms Naughty
November 27th, 2008

A reply to truthwillout:

You do realise that this isn't really about child pornography, don't you?

That OF COURSE most people want to see child porn stopped and children protected. That is what the police are for.

Our point is that this clean feed plan is a massively expensive and unnecessary imposition of censorship that WILL NOT stop child porn but it will stop legitimate sites and also stop adults from being able to choose what they wish to see on the internet.

And given the history of statistical manipulation on this topic (see my previous post and http://libertus.net/censor/resources/statistics-laundering.html ) I'm almost inclined to discount any survey performed by Child Wise in their push to censor the net.

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gurujim
November 27th, 2008

"and have the debate here in Australia..."
Yep that's exactly what we are trying to do..right now...before the momentum of the 'trial' and legislation preempts any serious debate. No one is advocating child pornography here - just arguing that technical pseudo-fixes are not effective at blocking it and have unacceptable side-effects.
"you are saying we cannot be trusted to look at the evidence " - well you'd better define exactly who the 'we' will be - because I certainly don't trust politicians to be immune to pressure from lobby groups..*G*

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Dimitri
November 27th, 2008

Conroy said Sweden and Demark had implemented similar filtering systems? Heh. Is that Sweden where members of Australian "parlourament" buying sex toys from?
Australian were wankers and stay proudly wankers regardless filters or money spent by greedy controls freaks. I’m not going to pay taxes anymore (as I and others do for the last 5-7 years) to those morons on the hill. Nobody respect them or cares about them anymore. Perhaps they need to divert attention from the major problem - The government is bankrupt! And banks are in worse situation then Iceland’s. Thanks stupid Australians – they do not panic because they do not know..
Can’ t they figure out that more single wankers, more freaks, more poofs in Australia – more money spent on crap, therefore more taxes collects.

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Michael Streeter
November 27th, 2008

A block list for content not suitable for children, and a block list for content not suitable for adults? Who will decide what I am and am not allowed to know? News Corp, the RIAA, The Bretheren and what other lobbby/pressure groups?

The reason I don't like it is I've worked on big IT systems before and you know, for the first five years it'll be a gold standard system; for the rest of forever it will be used by elected and unelected alike for nefarious purposes. The ability to selectively suppress information is a dream come true to a lot of people, who will all want to be involved. Would you let these people suppress the information available to you as a 'service'?

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Ridion
November 28th, 2008

I think an analogy can be drawn between internet sensorship and mp3 DRMs. DRM was introduced to pretent piracy of music. The result is many users who upgrade their computers and want to move their music onto the new machine find they can not. Pirated music comes DRM free and so can be listened to freely and copied onto whatever computer you would like. The protection only affects the people who do the right thing.

The Government would be kidding itself if it thought it could block all inapropriate content for children to acess, they would be taking with it the freedom of the internet. The spread of pirated material and illegal digital data will never be stoped, this move will simply frustrate the users unable to acess websites and increase the monthly cost for broadband. These are not results I see as being steps in the right direction.

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Chester Graham
November 28th, 2008

What is going on?
Are you in favour of censorship, or seduced by Federal Labor?
The round-robin message to Conroy is mealy-mouthed, and you have provided no space for us to write a better message.
Will you leave yourselves compromised in this way?

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Des
November 28th, 2008

A lot of criticism was made of China blocking internet sites during the Olympics - in fact most Australians were horrified that the Chinese were still so censured in this modern day and age. Are we still a democracy or not?
No one has the right to decide what the public should or should not see on the internet. I think the govt should be focusing on more important things than spending taxpayer $$ on something taxpayers don't want! Stop controlling and policing and start educating and guiding....

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the opinionation
November 28th, 2008

We at "The Opinionation" are opposed to any action the violates the imaginary civil rights we citizens have in australia, in particular freedom of speech.

Blocking websites violates our rights as adults to choose which content we view and can lead to a complete oppressive state ala 1984.

Do not be fooled, along with the anti terror laws, this is just another step to control the information people can get to and what they can and cannot say.

Websites do not kill people. People kill people.

Perhaps if the government spent the money planned for internet filtering on education and actually catching perpetrators of child pornography we would be able to claim we are being proactive and ensuring Australia becomes leader in the century, instead of becoming a locked down pseudo progressive state.

http://theopinionation.net/blog

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Gwildor
November 28th, 2008

R.I.P to the Internet in Australia

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Mr Han
November 28th, 2008

With my meagre understanding of democracy, and indeed technology, coming from the remote village of North Narrabeen, it would seem to me that the Govt's plan has come into existence due to democratic forces involving the Family First folk who some people did actually vote for. I find the last point the most astounding. Still, it is a big jump from such an event to somehow promulgate that the freedom of all Australians is somehow now at risk because someone (Family First) is putting their electoral pressure on someone else (Kevin). That's what happens, people use their influence...and I dont really think we are looking at the eroding of liberty, per se. I think the folk who have organised the work on the 'clean feed' are not bad people and do have the best interests of small folk at heart and I dont think that's a bad thing...no matter how rare. There's nothing wrong with doing what we can to protect small folk. This should be lauded. So, having said that, I'll bow out of the debate, and GetUp, whilst wishing all well. The work done on helping David Hicks was excellent.

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Kd_79
November 28th, 2008

I grew up in the Russian controlled eastern part of Germany and this proposal reminds me a great deal of the approach the government took back there to supress and filter the media. From memory we only had two channels on TV. DDR I and DDR II and they were both equally loaded with propaganda. If you were lucky you lived close enough to the border and were able to receive the channels broadcasted in the western part of Germany constantly fearing to be caught or dobbed-in.

After the long way we came to have privileges like freedom of information and freedom of speech I am literally scared we are moving backward. What comes next? Is the government going to decide where i can travel to and where not to protect me from terrorism?

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Geoff
November 28th, 2008

Somehow.. just somehow I think maybe.. just maybe.. a teeny tiny.. littlest bit THE F&^*&$!! CHRISTIANS ARE INVOLVED AND TRYING TO SHOVE THEIR AGENDA DOWN OUR THROATS. AYE??? What is the background of these morons pushing this crap? I'd bet my life savings they are born again loons.

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Cameron
November 28th, 2008

I can't understand why the government doesn't just suggest to users that they subscribe to excellent services like Cleenfeed (http://www.cleanfeed.co.uk/). It is easy to use and parents can configure the content that they get to suit themselves. We are obviously facing a really serious problem here. I am surprised at the extreme fanaticism of the government about this issue and very sorry that I voted for them last year! From what I've read we are facing an end to the Internet as we know it in Australia. It is really sad and stupid.

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Cameron
November 28th, 2008

I can't understand why the government doesn't just suggest to users that they subscribe to excellent services like Cleenfeed (http://www.cleanfeed.co.uk/). It is easy to use and parents can configure the content that they get to suit themselves. We are obviously facing a really serious problem here. I am surprised at the extreme fanaticism of the government about this issue and very sorry that I voted for them last year! From what I've read we are facing an end to the Internet as we know it in Australia. It is really sad and stupid.

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Enough already
November 28th, 2008

tatti and Mr Han,

Child pornography should absolutely be eradicated, no argument at all and I don't think anyone would disagree.

But young Folks are not the only once that occupy the land of OZ, as an Adult I am truly capable of deciding for myself what is appropriate to view and what my children should view.

If someone wants to get access to something, they will.

It is illegal for a teenager to buy alcohol, but still we face many of tragic schoolies weeks with intoxicated teens.

Drugs such as Speed etc are also illegal but yet every weekend many of the young use these.

What has happened to parenthood isn't it the responsibility of a parent to bring up their child and teach them about life’s good and not so good experiences?

How do we (and who) determine what material is inappropriate?

I like Dogs but not Cats, so if I was in power should I ban all access to information about Cats? (Stupid example I know, but do you get my point?).

Where would it stop?

Are we going to ban and censor sites that contains references and information about religion that may not sit well with the Christian lobby groups, or homosexuality, or abortion, or mental health, or space travel for that matter. No the Earth is not flat.

Seriously a Child cannot access the internet without an adults assistance, the responsibility of "censoring' what a child can view rest solely with the parent.

It is time for every single parent to accept the responsibility of bringing a child into life.

If you are so concerned with your young once getting access to "inappropriate" material DON'T buy them a computer or give them access to the internet without supervision.

You would not give your child the car keys without first teaching them to drive.

Why should your lack of responsible parenting and supervison impeed my rights as an adult?

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Mr Han
November 29th, 2008

The thing is, "Enough Already" is that every parent isnt perfect but many of us do care about the issue and wish to do whatever is possible to protect these young folk whether or not your download speed is reduced by a zillionth or not.
When it comes to caring about the lives and wellbeing of young folk it is not so much, as you opine "Where will it stop?" It is, in our age, now, "When will it start?"
Here's somewhere. Why should your reckless disregard for others be somehow used to justify inaction?

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Mr Han
November 29th, 2008

This is the Gun Lobby's Philosophy, and the Cigarette Lobby...Blame parents.
Well done.
I am a parent.
You see it is parents who are seeking to fix the medium for their kids.
You could help, if you cared. That's the thing.
Care. The right to care. The remarkable and profound obligation. The whole evolutionary story from Houston to Here.
Seems the overriding argument is: It wont work.
Like controlling the excess of the free market. let it be. How dare you.Old stuff. Cries from the crypt.
Seriously, we can try. You should be with people who really do try rather than ridicule good motives. Start there. Look beyond yourself. It helps us all.

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Christian Dad
November 29th, 2008

I am a parent and you do not speak for me or other parents at my church, same as I do not claim to talk for all parents.

You presume too much and your catch all arguments try to tar all with emotive negatives.

You need to read more and learn from groups actually protecting children such as "Save the Children", the largest independent children's rights agency in the world.

they have been quoted as saying

"educating kids and parents was the way to empower young people to be safe internet users.

She said the filter scheme was "fundamentally flawed" because it failed to tackle the problem at the source and would inadvertently block legitimate resources."

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Mr Han
November 30th, 2008

You see, Christian Dad, that's the point. If "Save the Children" actually worked, then there's no issue. "Educating kids and parents was the way to empower young people to be safe internet users". Be great if all parents were really good and inspired educators. Yes, that would ahve been best...When did that actually happen?
Your theories are interesting and serve some useful purpose, like a patch on an old coat. For awhile the patch keeps out the cold...but it eventually falls off.As for THIS IS WHAT PARENTS SHOULD BE LIKE...goodness me. I agree, but many simply aren't. So, you can be content within the world of SHOULDS or try to help.

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Christian Dad
December 1st, 2008

So now your saying the organisation "Save the Children" is not working.

By saying such things only discredits your arguments and suggests a degree of trolling.

They do very good work and have been doing it for nearly a century now. It is showing your evil designs by discrediting that fine organisation which you quoted from my post.

The police are also doing their job, just when filtering (as in Finland) of CP is introduced the police choose filtering over catching the crooks. Read the reports. One reason is the money needed for policing is now split between policing and filtering and government dept to administer it.

If parents are not supervising now then the filter will not help, simply put its not the web sites that are the real problem, its the chat rooms etc which is not part of any filter. Also the parents who do not supervise cannot expect their children to grow up with values similar to their own, even with a "perfect" filter.

Oh and education has to be of both the parents and the children. Schools also have a place in teaching the children internet safety as they teach stranger safety. Stranger safety is successfully taught now by parents and schools, so I see no problems in teaching internet safety.

You see Mr debater, just as you say "Be great if all parents were really good and inspired educators". It would be great if the filter was perfect, actually filtered ALL the illegal sites (and not overblock), had a iron clad guarantee that no future government will not use the filter as a tool of censorship.

Conroy's filter will not protect children and the stuff it lets through means that the parents who stop supervising children because of the government claiming it works as a clean feed, will be endangering their children more than when the filter did not exist.

I am a father and I know the problems with the filter and people like you who have GREAT FAITH in the government's spin who endanger families who don't realise that the filter is NOT perfect.

I still come back to my point of "You do not speak for other parents" and i resent you claiming to do so. It is a sign of that you do not have substance to back up your opinions. Your metaphors are just interesting but worthless.

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Alen Lawson
December 4th, 2008

Wake Up Mr Christian. The Perfect Filter is YOU!!!
Don't rely on Govt's to do the work for You and spoil it for everyone else. People like yourself do not deserve to touch a keyboard.

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Christian Dad
December 5th, 2008

Read my posts, I was against what Han said, thus against the filter.

I am against this censorship filter, it does not do what Conroy's spin claims and is only there for information control.

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Alen Lawson
December 4th, 2008

Wake Up Mr Christian. The Perfect Filter is YOU!!!
Don't rely on Govt's to do the work for You and spoil it for everyone else. People like yourself do not deserve to touch a keyboard.

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Hoffy
November 29th, 2008

Errr, Mr Han, have a read of this:
http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/02/22/wanna-buy-a-porn-blocker-only-3000/

It
seems to me that parents AREN'T seeking to fix the medium for their kids, or the uptake rate on the Howard government's free filtering scheme would have been much more than a lousy 1% of households.
The fact is, mandatory filtering is nonsensical and will only hurt the people who are doing nothing wrong in the first place (the sort of filtering being discussed is EASILY circumvented). Waste of money. And this is the populism you rail against. Yet you've fallen for the lie that this will somehow protect children.

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John Fitzpatrick
November 29th, 2008

This is the Gun Lobby's Philosophy, and the Cigarette Lobby...Blame parents.
Well done.
I am a parent.
You see it is parents who are seeking to fix the medium for their kids.
You could help, if you cared. That's the thing.
Care. The right to care. The remarkable and profound obligation. The whole evolutionary story from Houston to Here.
Seems the overriding argument is: It wont work.
Like controlling the excess of the free market. let it be. How dare you.Old stuff. Cries from the crypt.
Seriously, we can try. You should be with people who really do try rather than ridicule good motives. Start there. Look beyond yourself. It helps us all.

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aussiebear
November 29th, 2008

I have no problem with trying to protect children using a content filter.

I've got major concerns with the content filter being mandatory to ALL Australians. There is NO opt-out. Why?

Why not have it opt-in? So that concerned parents can simply call their ISP and say they want the filter on for them. (Which leaves the rest of us alone).

My 2nd concern: The Govt is trying to push this via a low profile approach, hoping no one will notice. Not to mention the fact that the list is completely secret. We're talking 10,000+ sites that have been blacklisted.

My 3rd concern: The people who make the decisions don't care. They have an agenda of promises to keep. They'll do anything to push this through. (Trying to put down that Internode network engineer as well as deceiving the public about examples of other countries using filtering).

My 4th concern: Is with the defenders of this Mandatory Content Filter. They don't understand that this isn't perfect. Its NOT a miracle cure. It has weaknesses:
(1) Accidentally block innocent sites;
(2) Can't block all "illegal" material;
(3) Can be bypassed by proxy and VPN approaches.

What makes this more ridiculous is that it does nothing with other protocols than filter HTTP (web browsing). Which means people will still be able to access illegal material via P2P, etc.

Think about it: If the Govt filters HTTP, and one can still get disgusting kiddie porn via other protocols. What exactly is the point? The Govt will be in a never ending cat and mouse game...All at the Australian Taxpayer's expense.

Have people not learned? Any technological barriers one sets up, will be broken. Software, music, movie, etc anti-copy protection mechanisms have ALL been bypassed, or broken in one form or another. (Often before the official release days).

You cannot compete with children who are technologically more advanced than you. You'll lose every time. No. Not even the Govt can help you. That's a guaranteed fact.

The best thing you can do is teach them the right principles and values of life. To teach them that, yes, the world is not all sunshine and rainbows. To teach them to be responsible for themselves. Its more beneficial for them in the long term scheme of things as they develop the discipline and the right habits as they grow.

The most powerful thing you can give to any human is freedom. But to restrict them of that, will cause them to find ways to break out of that restriction. The tighter the noose, the more fierce things will get.

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gurujim
November 29th, 2008

This is great summary of my concerns too.
I particularly worry about that secret list of blocked sites...see this article:

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/02/19/0252236.shtml

and
its links for what seems to be happening in Finland.
Just WHO will be composing this list? When it comes to books and films, we have a censorship board - we know who's on it and there's a public process for determining that.
But I bet we don't get any such thing with this filter - so who will run the filter? will it be a couple of IT nerds? A couple of police? Just how resistant would they be to political pressure when someone (say Kevin Rudd, or George Pell, or Fred Nile, or some radio shock-jock rings up and tells them a site should be blocked).
The filter list that controls the NSW Dept. Of Education network is outsourced to a foreign outfit - will the Great Aussie filter be the same?
And even if all those questions can be resolved satisfactorily, we will still be left with the fact that IT JUST WON'T WORK!

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Peter Graham
November 29th, 2008

Censorship, in all its forms, is not only morally wrong, it it essentially counter-productive. As, in the case of all bans and restrictions, put in place by those who have either a wish to do good, or those whose intentions are not so good, censorship shows how little thinking capacity has been brought to bear by the perpetrator, or perpetrators. Where, as in this case, the stated intent is to prevent the spread of child pornography on the internet and keep this disgusting material away from young eyes, it is doomed to failure.

The criminals will easily find another way to disseminate their disgusting filth and the forces of law enforcement will be disadvantaged. We are blest with highly efficient and very well funded law enforcement organisations that have a very good record of disrupting these criminal organisations and bringing their evil members to justice. They rely on the internet to gather evidence and by forcing the criminals to use other methods they are deprived of all the good work they have done and must start again.

There is more than one objection to these proposed restraints of free speech. Censorship can be, and has been, used to shut down opponents of governments all round the world. Bans on religion, trade unions, alcohol, and even opposition parties have been used in various times and countries. In the end though, all of these have resulted in strengthening the resolve of those banned. There is every chance, for instance, that GetUp would have been hampered by the previous government, had these laws been in force during the last couple of years.

We cannot afford to trust government, any government, when our liberty and freedoms are at stake. Censorship is a creeping, insidious evil that, instigated with the best will in the world, will eventually destroy our way of life.
Parents are the best qualified to control what children watch and law enforcement forces are the best qualified to catch criminals. We must let our government know that what they propose is wrong and morally unacceptable to all decent people. They must remove the blinkers from their eyes and see that what looks good politically is not always the way forward. We elected this government to make a change for the better and this is not it.

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November 29th, 2008

ahhh whens the next election? i made my mistake this year

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Yong fu
January 15th, 2009

We all did.
Its hard to know about these plans when he tells you its mandatory after he's elected.

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cm
November 29th, 2008

Stress less people, ISP filtering is easy to get around with an encrypted tunnel (e.g. SSH tunneling). In fact, you can get around pretty much anything with a bit a know-how. This lame filter will be no different.

It will just be slower that's all.

cm

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Borowicz
November 29th, 2008

It was in the news earlier this week that the Liberals and Greens had announced they were both opposed to this Labor filtering and censorship initiative. Since it can't get through without them, that would seem to be another reason to stress less.

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Puffy
November 30th, 2008

Even though at present times it doesn't seem it can get through palament, its worth atleast keeping an eye on this to make sure that Labour can't get suffient support through the minor parties or through bartering with the Liberals and the Greens.

One thing that may or may not have been mentioned is the real risk to the Australian gaming industry. The increased latency will cause international gamers to stop playing on our servers, and to a point may even prevent our friends in NZ from playing.

Inter-state gaming will be severly effected, imagine, a Canberra vs Sydney player ping? 120-500ms+ when its normally 24-60ms.

I am not aware of any Australian made, latency sensitive games (e.g. FPS, Real time strats, Co-Op, etc), but if our 'net goes to the thunderbox, I highly doubt any of our game dev's here will be willing to take the risk to make any of the above games.

The other problems it may bring across is international video streaming, from our media to Australia. They'll have to get a huge pipe at BOTH ends OR turn down their equipment bringing poorer quality international news and current affairs plagued by latency spikes and pixelisation due to excessive packet loss.

I voted for Labour, for our rights in the workplace, little did I know I'd find a knife lodged in my back nearly a year later care of the very govt that I voted for.

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Jacob
November 30th, 2008

You have a lot of company among those feeling betrayed by this government. It's good GetUp is on to this.

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Moralist
November 30th, 2008

Hooray at last! An attempt to control the internet. I'm tired of people who want everything except responsibility.
Freedom comes at a price. The internet has been hijacked by those lacking morale fibre and now it's time to regain some control. Well done, time for change!

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Father Ted
November 30th, 2008

Quite right, young man. You must ask yourself: "How would Jesus surf the Web?"

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honest john
November 30th, 2008

Moralist
getup has been hijacked by members of the British National Party.bnp.org.uk/

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Mr Han
November 30th, 2008

For many of us, Phil, on either side of this or other issues, the Dark Ages weren't so long ago...whether it involved being raised by Jesuits with issues, Tibetan buddhist monks with issues, or suffering through a cultural revolution. On we go nevertheless. Life is short but at the same time, with grace, it is also long enough. As someone said (and I doubt it was Mao) "A long life and a happy one, a quick death and an easy one, a good woman and a pretty one, a bottle of wine... and another one." Wishing us all well beyond the riven-times.

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phildeerhound
November 30th, 2008

What follows is a bit of a slab but I think it is worth pasting this material in FYI

It is sourced from the Senate Notice Papers Canberra 20 November 2008

Senator Ludlum has asked some pertinent questions that indicate just how far the Government is going on this. Thank you Senator

"Questions on notice given 20 November 2008

831 Senator Ludlam: To ask the Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy—In regard to the recently announced ‘live pilot’ of Internet » content filtering:

(1) Why does the pilot aim to test the impact of filtering on « Internet » connections ranging up to 12 Mega bits per second (Mbps) when 12Mbps is the minimum speed which the National Broadband Network project is claimed to deliver.

(2) Why will the pilot test the capacity of the filters to ‘detect and provide warnings on circumvention attempts’.

(3) What is meant by ‘provide warnings on circumvention attempts’.

(4) Does the Government propose, or is it considering, the criminalisation of circumventing or attempting to circumvent the proposed filtering regime.

(5) Will « Internet » Service Provider’s be required, or permitted, to apply any level of filtering to the « Internet » connections of people who have not volunteered to participate in the pilot.

(6) If the customers participating in the pilot are volunteers, how will the results of the pilot be of any worth when they will be affected by self-selection bias.

(7) How does the Government propose to prevent technological tools such as proxies, Virtual Private Networks, the Tor service and encryption from being used to circumvent the Government’s filtering regime without adversely affecting the ability of Australian businesses and residents to conduct their online business in a safe and secure fashion.

(8) Are technological tools such as Virtual Private Networks, Peer-to-Peer applications and encryption, being used by persons trafficking in child pornography online; if so, how will the Government’s proposed filtering regime prevent this.

832 Senator Ludlam: To ask the Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy—

(1) On what basis does the Government claim that « Internet » service provider (ISP)-based filtering is more effective than personal computer-based solutions.

(2) What is the Government’s justification for making the dynamic content analysis filtering component of the regime opt-out rather than opt-in.

(3) Why is it necessary to compel all Australian ISPs to supply a filtered « Internet » service when there are already some ISPs offering such a service in the market.

(4) If the demand within the Australian public for filtered « Internet » connections from their ISP exists as claimed by the Government, why has this not manifested itself in the market to date.

(5) What evidence does the Government have to support the claimed public demand for filtered « Internet » connections.

(6) Can details be provided of organisations that have assisted the department through providing advice, information and examples that have contributed directly to the Government’s proposed filtering plan.



833 Senator Ludlam: To ask the Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy—

(1) What is the current number of Uniform Resource Locators (URLs) on the Australian Communications and Media Authority’s (ACMAs) list of overseas-hosted prohibited or potentially-prohibited content.

(2) How many unique domain names are within the URLs which are currently on the ACMA blacklist.

(3) (a) How many active URLs are currently on the ACMA blacklist; and (b) of these, how many have been, or in the ACMA’s view would be:

(i) classified MA15+,

(ii) classified R18+,

(iii) classified X18+,

(iv) refused classification, and

(v) refused classification because they contain child pornography, and in this case, how many were referred to: ( a ) Commonwealth, state or territory police, and ( b ) an overseas agency.

(4) (a) How many active URLs have been placed on the ACMA blacklist as potentially-prohibited content but which upon classification were found not to be prohibited content; and (b) what is the average period of time that such content has been incorrectly blacklisted.

(5) (a) Is it currently unlawful for an Australian adult to access « Internet » content that is hosted overseas where that content according to ACMA is:

(i) classified MA15+,

(ii) classified R18+,

(iii) classified X18+, and

(iv) refused classification, other than content defined as ‘child pornography material’ and ‘child abuse material’ in section 473.1 of Division 473 of Part 10.6 ‘Telecommunications Services’ of the Criminal Code Act 1995 ; and (b) if so, on what basis.

(6) Which categories of legal material, that is, material which Australian adults can legally access on the « Internet » , will be subject to mandatory « Internet » service provider (ISP)-level filtering that is not optional for end-users.

(7) In regard to the proposed expansion or augmentation of the ACMA blacklist by obtaining alleged child pornography blacklists from overseas agencies:

(a) does the criteria for inclusion on these overseas blacklists align with the Australian classification scheme;

(b) what mechanisms will exist to ensure the accuracy of these overseas blacklists;

(c) is the Minister aware of serious inaccuracies and over-blocking in the blacklist of alleged child pornography that is voluntarily used by some ISPs in Finland;

(d) is the Minister aware that a website which criticised and exposed serious inaccuracies in the Finish blacklist, in an act of apparent retaliation by the Government or police agencies, was itself placed on the blacklist; and

(e) how can the Australian public be assured that controversial yet legal content will not be blocked by its inclusion on overseas blacklists.



(8) What safeguards will be put in place, or what assurances can the Minister give, that the scope of the mandatory blacklist will not, once the filtering regime is implemented, be expanded to include politically controversial material such as websites which allegedly promote anorexia.

(9) How can Australians be confident that the Government’s proposed filtering regime will not wrongly block access to material dealing with political, activist, creative and governmental matters.

(10) What is the mechanism by which the complaints-based ACMA blacklisting will be expanded to examine a broader range of « Internet » content.

(11) What resources and expertise are to be provided to ACMA to enable it to properly identify illegal or prohibited material under an expanded scheme.

(12) What assurances can the Minister give Australian businesses that access to their websites will not be wrongly blocked by the Government’s proposed filtering regime.

834 Senator Ludlam: To ask the Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy—

(1) With reference to the statement on the department’s website ‘Online Content Regulation’ (last modified: 12 May 2008)

http://www.dbcde.gov.au/communications_for_consumers/internet/online_content_regulation

which
says that ‘For overseas-hosted content the prohibited categories are RC and X’: is this correct; if not, what are the prohibited categories for overseas-hosted content and on what date did the change to the categories commence operation.

(2) How many items of « Internet » content were classified by the Classification Board for the year ended 30 June 2007 in response to an application for classification by the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA).

(3) Of the total number in (2) above: (a) how many were items hosted in Australia; and (b) how many of those items were classified in each of the following categories G, PG, M, MA15+, R18+, X18+ and RC.

(4) Of the items in (3)(b) above that were classified G, PG, M, or MA15+: (a) how many have been the subject of an interim take-down notice; and (b) what was the average period of time from the date of issue by ACMA of the notice to the date of issue by ACMA of a notice revoking it.

(5) Of the total number of items in (2) above: (a) how many were hosted outside Australia; and (b) how many of these were classified in each of the following categories, G, PG, M, MA15+, R18+, X18+ and RC.

(6) If any of the items referred to in (5) above were classified G, PG, M, MA15+ or R18+: (a) how many of those items had been placed on the ACMA blacklist as potentially-prohibited content; and (b) what was the average period of time during which such content was incorrectly blacklisted.

(7) What is the total amount paid by the ACMA to the Classification Board for the classification of the items referred to in (2) above.

(8) Will access to services such as Google Translate, Google Cache and similar tools provided by various other search engine providers be blocked to prevent circumvention of the « filter .



(9) Given that the Australian Labor Party’s policy document ‘Labor’s Plan for Cyber-Safety’ discusses dangers such as online identity theft, cyber-bullying, publication of photographs without permission and online activities of cyber predators (such as using chat rooms): how will the proposed filtering regime address these issues.

Senate Notice Papers Canberra 20 November 2008

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Borowicz
November 30th, 2008

phildeerhound, you've put a lot of sincere thought and energy into this. I appreciate the effort and fully agree with what you have said in your posts. Bottom line is this Labor plan is bullying and undemocratic, technically unfeasible and, very significantly, is actively hated and despised by all of the regular Internet users I have spoken to. I do think it will be defeated.

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Coopa
November 30th, 2008

Hey there!!!!
Look at the overall picture, not just internet centure, THE WHOLE UPBRINGING OF THE CURRENT POPULATION ARE TOTALLY INDOCTRINATE OR BRAINWASHHED BY THE SYSTEM NOW.
1. RELIGION. To be taught to believe in something that has no factual basis whatever against what you see in everyday living in reality is rediculous.
2. To realise that what you have been taught about the systems of governments and world events is just as stupid but it sure gives a fine example of how powerfull this conditioning or brainwashing is.
I am telling you that evrything you are taught while growing up is totally to allow you to be manipulated as required by the few people who really control mankind in this world, and you are not interested in looking at this which is a part of the conditioning.
IT IS SO POWERFULL.

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Dougall
November 30th, 2008

I find it very hard to believe that the proposed compulsory internet filtering would be constitutional. I suggest the government gives up now, before the inevitable successful High Court challenge.

The High Court has in the past held that, while Australia doesn't have a Bill of Rights, the right to free speech is inherent in the Australian Constitution, and any legal restriction on free speech has to be proportionate to the harm which the legislation is aimed at.

While it is hard to find out exactly what the compulsory internet filtering would involve, one thing that does stand out is that the level of interference with, and scrutiny of, normal users' rights is completely disproportionate to the supposed speech to be restricted - to the extent that it seems very clear that the government has a further agenda (invasive scrutiny of internet use).

I believe that there IS some role for government in making certain dangerous speech/pictures/representations illegal, such as neo-Nazi websites that incite racist violence.

However I also think that the role of government is then to prosecute the persons disseminating that illegal speech, not to take draconian steps to 'protect' everyone from that speech in a way which seriously limits the rights of individuals to access perfectly legal information and sites.

For a democracy to work, communication and access to information must both be as free as possible. It is unquestionable that limiting communications and information across the board in the manner proposed is anti-democratic. It goes far beyond the appropriate role of government.

Senator Ludlam's questions make it quite clear that the proposal will not achieve its purported aims and will have some highly undesirable effects.

Senator Conroy and Kevin Rudd - be men enough to stand up and admit that this proposal would impose an unacceptable level of scrutiny upon internet users - even beyond that of most military regimes. I didn't vote for your government to have this happen. It's bad enough that all our emails are kept for 7 years!

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Mr Han
November 30th, 2008

7 years of emails...wow, that would really give a remarkable mud map mantra of the mind. Can you request a copy? I'd love to see that.

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Mr Han
November 30th, 2008

Emails kept for 7 years? What, Why? Is 7 some kind of lucky number?

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Mr Han
December 1st, 2008

Dear Phil, As a person who hardly ever says anything, in English, and even less frequently says anything of worth in any language apart from 'turn left, turn right, straight ahead', I find the anti-filter notion/campaign as worthy of consideration and comment. Obviously it's a quiet time for me.
I hope and pray that my emails of the past 7 years, especially when an employee of various government services, were indeed kept and read regarding the overall debauchery of those systems. And I'm not signalling out Queensland Health at all or in any way. They're great.

Back to the point.
There seems to be a certain delight in listing things by you, Phil, and others, generally attacking the stupidity of people who dont agree with you. Whilst this may be true in that Im not very smart at all, I can do it as well:

There are three groups that oppose this initiative of the Rudd ensemble:

1: Those who think that they should be allowed to carry their litre of cola onto an aeroplane, because its their human right, and, damn it, there should be a Bill of Rights and they should have access to guns and teach their children well about how to use an automatic weapon wisely.

2: Those who think that the internet has something to do with self-definition simply because they cant define themselves outside it, no matter what the cost to the vulnerable. These are folk, similar to those mentioned in Point#1, a subculture, somewhat cultish and silly, like fundamental Islamists, and Christians in general, who mostly live in Texas.
3: My group, the pros and cons people who have been victims of various forms of abuse. And it is interesting to see how we, as a group, go to each extreme in terms of social policy. Perhaps this is our way of trying to help. At the same time, in our hearts we know that any belief, taken to an extreme, becomes a human crime.

In this campaign I happen to believe that more good will be done by trying to support the young uns, even in a foolish and, oh my god, it was Family First who wanted this...kind of fundamental chuck-up way, than by trying to ensure my own indisputable adult liberty. My own liberty, and legacy, has nothing to do with internet filters.

But I sense that maybe, just maybe, Phil, not all parents are good people, at their best, all the time. Oh how it would be nice if it were so. Oh how, if the past didnt happen, we could believe in what should happen in our communities.

Outside of that sad thing, we have a new government that isnt bad, that is pursuing a basic line of simple care, and I support that. It may work, it may not.

So, we'll see. My step-daughter's dad is a succesful leopard seal-oil dealer who believes in his own right to pursue liberty and prosperity in this world and , indeed, he remains quite succesful.

It's our ambitions and our fears that equally define us, not our access to portals of random pleasures and toxins, Phil. But for our kids, well, we can try to do something good.

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Nasty Nate
December 1st, 2008

check out this picture, it's supposed to be the 'Great Firewall of China'

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://en.epochtimes.com/news_images/2006-11-10-netcops.jpg&imgrefurl=http://serfcity.wordpress.com/2007/05/25/banned-in-china/&usg=__l9M4aP9ZVhFXbZvphtcd3RoQ-Rc=&h=225&w=300&sz=73&hl=en&start=76&tbnid=FIh1Z4bgfh2YEM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgreat%2Bfirewall%2Bof%2Bchina%26start%3D60%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

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itisme
December 1st, 2008

What the govt never figures out is that they are stupider than those they try to control. Especially the crims. Now I have it on good authority that there are already people setting up networks in Bermuda that will set up ISP’s through satellite and that these will not be able to be censored. So that is where all the pedophiles and crims will go and then the govt will have no chance of finding them. Spend the money tracking these people down and putting them is jail for a long time (that would be a change) and then also let us know who they are when they get out of jail rather than protecting them.

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endintiers
December 1st, 2008

itisme: No need to go to Bermuda - New Zealand will do (see: http://vpnfeed.com) and IPV6 will work faster than satellite feeds.

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Blank
December 1st, 2008

i think they should be setting up something like the Google Safe browsing. make that compulsory in all internet browsers, but include a 3rd list for adult material. just something that gives a warning to the material on the page, and a function within preferences to turn on adult control so the browser is not allow to access a webpage on that list. would work better than what they are proposing, they should be trying to inform the public, not trying to stop them without a choice. they are removing our choice and therefore failing us citizens as a government.

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Mr Han
December 1st, 2008

Final Comments on this campaign.
A. The Petition is signed by members who oppose the pervasive technological censorship, who are mostly high-volume users of the medium, many of whom state that there are easy ways for both kids and predators to get around it. Comments indicate a majority of folk dont trust the government, any government.
B.So, because they dont trust the government they'll send GetUp their email/signature and then GetUp will present this to the government. this is the government GetUp supported to get into power.
C.The government can also, using existing laws, compel GetUp to supply emailaddresses to verify the authenticity of the petition, and also they can compel GetUp to provide member data based upon current laws related to paedophiles, terrorists etc and compel their silence as well. So, we trust the government enough for them to have email addresses of petitioners who are high end users of the web and many of whom know how kids and predators will get around the new system, many enjoy porn etc as their right...to tell the government we dont trust them...and dont want our rights to see whatever we want interfered with.
Duh. That's brave. If I was an untrustworthy government, Id find that information useful...and easy to get. Id have a heap of folk to start looking at. But fortunately...we obviously trust the government?

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cottonmouth
December 1st, 2008

This isn't just a step towards freedom to play games or download movies. This is freedom of speech, and is fundamental to an 'democratic' society. Citizens have a right to share their opinions and beliefs, and the internet is a revolutionary medium in which is this possible. The internet provides the community that is so severely lacking in modern society. Everyone is so isolated from one another, both physically and emotionally. Walls and boxes define this isolation. But the internet presents the potential to overcome this, and not only unite one with their immediate community, but to form a global community uniting many cultures and societies.

If the PM is worried about issues such as euthanasia and anorexia, does he really think that censoring the internet will solve these problems?? It's a band-aid solution, it does just that - covers up the problem; 'If I can't see it I can pretend it doesn't exist'. If you're worried about anorexia, then start encouraging the portrayal of realistic feminine beauty, not femininity that resembles lanky boys, all skinny with no hips. What's feminine about that? Or better yet, start promoting women's strength's intellectually and emotionally rather than just their physical appearance. Teach girls that they have value beyond their appearance.

So what's the next step? Give the government that kind of power over communication, and you have to expect them to use it.

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Interested
December 2nd, 2008

To Phil

Mate, some friendly sane advice ... you need to get a life and stop getting off over this debate.
The more I read of your retorts, the more I'm convinced that you have lost the whole point of what this campaign is about.

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Mr Han
December 1st, 2008

Ah Phil, as I said Im retired from the campaign and will leave it to the serious debaters. I just found it an interesting paradox that one who doesnt trust the government with acting legally with the electronic medium will inform them... electronically. Its a notion that will only worry the paranoid I guess.
As it is I trust the australian government so am not all that fussed.
My main concern, looking out the 23rd floor window here is how to somehow get through the airport barricades so I can get home to my little dairy farm and ecstasy factory on Melamine Mountain in Yunnan. I dont want to have to go through Myanmar overland again especially carrying what Im carrying.
Take it easy. We love the king.

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Darwinite
December 1st, 2008

For anyone that doubts any murky ulterior motives, you can run a simple test yourself if you happen to work for a government agency or in education. The following site is already blocked in all NT schools (deemed as uneducational), who are merely applying an existing government sanctioned blacklist. Kind of ironic if you think about it... I would be interested to know what else is considered unsuitable for the next generation (our children) to read about (other than the obvious).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship

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Peter Graham
December 1st, 2008

Censorship, in all its forms, is not only morally wrong, it it essentially counter-productive. As,in the case of all bans and restrictions, put in place by those who have either a wish to do good, or those whose intentions are not so good, censorship shows how little thinking capacity has been brought to bear by the perpetrator, or perpetrators. Where, as in this case, the stated intent is to prevent the spread of child pornography on the internet and keep this disgusting material away from young eyes, it is doomed to failure.

The criminals will easily find another way to disseminate their disgusting filth and the forces of law enforcement will be disadvantaged. We are blest with highly efficient and very well funded law enforcement organisations that have a very good record of disrupting these criminal organisations and bringing their evil members to justice. They rely on the internet to gather evidence and by forcing the criminals to use other methods they are deprived of all the good work they have done and must start again.

There is more than one objection to these proposed restraints of free speech. Censorship can be, and has been used to shut down opponents of governments all round the world. Bans on religion, trade unions , alcohol,and even opposition parties, have been used in various times and countries. In the end though, all of these have resulted in strengthening the resolve of those banned. There is every chance, for instance, that our organisation would have been hampered by the previous government, had these laws been in force during the last couple of years.

We cannot afford to trust government, any government, when our liberty and freedoms are at stake. Censorship is a creeping, insidious evil that, instigated with the best will in the world will eventually destroy our way of life.
Parents are the best qualified to control what children watch, and law enforcement forces are the best qualified to catch criminals. We must let our government know that what they propose is wrong and morally unacceptable to all decent people. They must remove the blinkers from their eyes and see that what looks good politically is not always the way forward. We elected this government to make a change for the better and this is not it.

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Disgusted
December 2nd, 2008

I don't want my eMails scanned for keywords and removed or censored like in China.

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DOT Doctor
December 2nd, 2008

There are items on the internet that children should not access but it is our jobs as parents to insure our children's cyber safety. Government censorship, in any nation, should not be allowed to interfer with the internet. This international means of connecting people and sharing info is a vital resource to all. Parents will still need to protect their children and folks seeking ill gain will still find a way. Why ruin a great resource for the rest of the population?

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Richard@Athelstone
December 2nd, 2008


20th Century - Burn the books!
21st Century - Censor the Internet!

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MrRandom
December 2nd, 2008

Haha, that's a very astute comparison there. *claps* ^_^

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programmer123
December 2nd, 2008

About five years ago I heard about the freenet project, a system that anonymizes the internet, you can publish anything you like, and its impossible to remove it, impossible to track who posted it, the perfect tool for free speech advocates, oppressed people in china etc.

"Wow!" I thought, "I might take a look to see what's out there" (expecting to find news about oppression in 3rd world dictatorships etc).. Mostly it was porn, of the most horrible variety. I shut down the freenet client that day never to open it again, totally shocked at the depraved things people with ABSOLUTE anonymity post on the web.

What is the point I'm trying to make? there are -already- systems out there like freenet that the criminals, child pornographers etc can and do use, without any fear of any internet filtering stopping them, and the sad fact is, the only way to stop those kinds of systems would be to shut down the internet all together. These systems are -designed- to function in the most locked down environments, and are impossible to filter.

So what is the point of this filter on the regular internet? its not going to stop the serious criminals, they don't even use the regular internet as the average joe knows it, its a pointless waste of money and will destroy our industry. (I work in the IT sector and uninhibited internet is vital for us to compete against over-seas companies).

ps:
And before people start attacking freenet, it was designed (like most simmilar tools) as a system to HELP people fleeing dictatorships etc, it is abused by sick and twisted individuals. It and other technologies that empower people are NOT the target, the people abusing them are.

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Wallywilbert
December 2nd, 2008

G'day,
I work at TAFE and recently the Department of Education has applied a blanket filter on the TAFE internet. This is because the TAFE has some students that are under 16 years old. What this has meant however is that our internet usage is now filtered at the level required for primary school. If a student does a simple google search for an image of 'trees', for example, then many of the results are blocked because they appear on 'portal' sites... this has become very frustrating for students and staff alike. Imagine if this level of filtering was applied nationwide?

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ilmis
December 2nd, 2008

I suggest there are three legal ways to physically protest.

The first one is to go in the streets and I know it's gonna happen soon.

The second one is to organize a flash mob and NOT to use internet for some time.

The third option is to use your connection excessively for some time so we've got a significant congestion.

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observer
December 2nd, 2008

My labour representative can rest assured that if this passes he I will take two weeks off work at the next election (if there is one) with the express purpose of making bloody sure he never pretents to be a supporter of democracy again.

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MrRandom
December 2nd, 2008

In order for this to work, the Government would have to also block every proxy site in existence (a proxy site is a site through which you can access any other site regardless of restrictions), and this is impossible since new ones appear every day...plus, they'd have to block anonymity software like Tor, which would require blocking other port access and a lot of other messy stuff.

The Internet is too big and diverse to be filtered in its entirety, frankly. Anyone who tries obviously doesn't understand the Internet. Doing things in schools is one thing because teachers provide an extra level of monitoring by looking over student's shoulders and admins have access to all the web logs...but if the Government thinks that they can send the police around to everyone's house every few days to check up on them and hack all their computers to check webpage histories, they've either got serious concept problems or a large secret police force lined up.

Finally, many of the pages that are going to end up being blocked aren't even illegal or anything...disturbing, maybe, but I guess people have a right to look at it if it's not breaking any laws anyway. If you want your children protected, GO DOWNLOAD FILTERING SOFTWARE. It comes free in several places and some BROWSERS even come with it! We don't want or need this crap.

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Don
December 2nd, 2008

Fellow free thinkers,
Why do these religious wankers CONTINUALLY believe they have a right to tell the rest of us (happily) heathens how to behave ? WHAT is it in their DNA that makes them NEED to believe in "morals" that they think EVERYONE has that should be the SAME ?
It has forever amazed me ....

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whiterabbit
December 2nd, 2008

What a naive and quite frankly ignorant attitude to have to think that the solution to this fundamentally massive problem of child pornography and paedophilia is through filtering technology. Can I ask the government to first look at spending our limited taxpayer funds on investigating and FIXING the justice system. No good if we continue to inadequately sentences and protect those very same perpetrators this silly proposal is trying to protect our children from.

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phindrup
December 2nd, 2008

I would hope that the young, technically savy are working on a computer to computer link system that by passes the existing net. It must be possible.
Why? You can bet your life that at some stage governments will close down the net -- Getup is a good example of why, in times of real upheaval the authorities would be much happier without the immediate extensive coverage that the web provides.
It is essential that an alternative that cannot be shut down is developed.

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Pro Choice
December 2nd, 2008

Education is the key to solving the world's problems. True education comes at a price: you get access to the good, the bad and the ugly and then make an informed choice based on your values as to how you will respond. Censoring the Internet removes access to educational information and removes choice and diminishes our rights. We live in a democracy: we have a right to choice. It is a thin line between protecting us and misinforming us.

Australia has been so successful in its campaign against AIDS: not trying to correct behaviour but trying to educate the masses and provide a support network to those at greatest risk (e.g. availability of condoms, needle exchange programs etc.) As a result, we are one of the few countries where AIDS is declining. Let us not get hysterical about the information available on the Internet. The morally corrupt will always find a way to their audience or their indulgences. Let's police that and not kill the other 99+% who use the Internet for research, education and communication.

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Rochelle Macredie
December 2nd, 2008

Arguments in Favour of the Freedom of the Internet

The proposed internet censorship scheme advanced by the Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy, Senator Stephen Conroy, will, amongst other things have the following effects: -

Inconvenience to the Public
Make the internet up to 87% slower (according to experiments by the Australian Communications and Media Authority), which has the potential to stop internet banking and online share trading as well as online shopping because the internet speeds will be slower than dial-up.

We can expect to go back to wasting hours in bank queues and shops like we did before the internet made these features accessible to us thus saving us time and money.

We can also look forward to wasting hours of our time paying bills in banks and post offices.

Since the internet will become slower than dial-up so YouTube and other multimedia sites will become inaccessible due to the slow speed.

The Government has invested $10 billion in the development of a high-speed broadband internet: This initiative that will be drastically undermined by this ISP-level filter.

Students will be hampered in their efforts to do research in relation to their education because of slow internet speeds.

Costly
The scheme makes it mandatory for Internet Service Providers (“ISP’s”) to provide internet filtering. The government has set aside $44 million over four years, but this is not going to cover the costs of such a system. In 2004 a Coalition Government commissioned report found that the cost of mandatory ISP level filtering would cost around $45 million in the first year, and $33 million every year after that. The costs will likely be passed onto consumers. While larger ISPs may be able to absorb some of these costs, the smaller ISPs (who exert competitive pressure on prices) are at serious risk of going under if such a scheme is introduced. 1

The ISP’s will have to put in more software and so they will pass on the cost to consumers this will make the internet more expensive so that many in the lower income group will no longer be able to afford the use! This is contrary to Labor’s egalitarian stance and flies in the face of party platform!



Online university study will become prohibitively expensive because the internet will be too slow thus pricing bandwidth out of the range of most students.

People with mobility problems rely on being able to shop for groceries and other essential items online but the slow internet will make this impossible because it will become too expensive and inconvenient for these people, most of who are on pensions.

Anti-Democratic
It will enable the blocking of material that is critical of the government of the day or its policies. The proposal is ill-conceived and ill-considered, supposing that Labor is voted out of office, then, its successor will be able to add sites urging its re-election to the banned list, thus gagging political debate and freedom of assembly. Obviously the scheme is open to abuse!

The proposed scheme will block a range of material that it is perfectly legal to view both online and offline. While the Minister frequently refers to "illegal"/"prohibited" material on Australian Communications and Media Authority’s (“ACMA's”) blacklist, this terminology is highly misleading. In fact, "prohibited content" includes material that is lawful to publish/distribute/obtain offline in Australia, (some is also lawful to exhibit in cinemas), and which is not illegal for Australians to view on the Internet. Material unsuitable for children is termed "prohibited content" in Commonwealth Internet censorship legislation enacted in 1999 (which Labor voted against).2

Senator Conroy has suggested that the mandatory filter should block access to “inappropriate” material and “unwanted” material, including “euthanasia websites”. Others types of material that are being considered for inclusion on the blacklist are gambling sites (the suggestion of Senator Xenophon) and all pornography (the suggestion of Senator Fielding). It is easy to see how the blacklist can quickly become a greylist – a process made even more dangerous by the fact that ACMA’s secret list of prohibited material is not subject to supervision, appeal, or review.

The scope of the mandatory filter is far broader than child pornography alone.

This internet censorship scheme goes further than any other democracy in the world as other countries such as Sweden and Canada have optional schemes for internet filtering whereas the proposed scheme is mandatory:

Other countries that have adopted internet filtering schemes have limited their attention to child pornography not anything and everything that the government of the day might not want us to access! This sort of practise has no place in a democracy because of its massive potential for abuse!


Senator Conroy later admitted that no western democracy in the world has introduced mandatory server-level filtering.

The scheme is so manifestly flawed that it is easy to conclude that this move is being implemented for ulterior motives, namely that some group or groups do not want people to use the internet to talk about them!

Unpopular
The proposal is extremely unpopular, as according to the GetUp Save the Net Campaign Website on 2 December 2008 there were over 65,000 signatures.

We have lived with internet pornography for some twenty years now; why has it suddenly become such a problem that we need to compromise our freedom and our lifestyle to adopt censorship measures like the theocracies of Iran and Saudi Arabia and the totalitarian regime of China?

Ineffective
The proposal will almost certainly be ineffective as it fails to block most of the offending material. Alternatively, if the measure is affective, then child pornography will be distributed via Australia Post and courier services – are these going to be checked as well?

The scheme will accidentally block up to one in 12 legitimate sites, will miss the vast majority of inappropriate content and is very easily sidestepped, thus rendering it ineffective.

This internet filter will only affect one third of internet traffic, because it does not apply to peer file sharing networks or email. In fact, users can very easily avoid the filter entirely using Virtual Private Networks (“VPN’s”), proxies or anonymising software.

In each of the countries that have net filtering, the filter can be easily avoided. No country in the world goes as far as dynamically analysing web traffic in real time, as Australia is proposing. Doing this will cause increased congestion and an increased rate of false positives, and has led experts to conclude this scheme will be technically unfeasible.

Evidence from Saudi Arabia suggests that the central filtering system currently blocks a list of more than 12 million addresses, slowing internet access by as much as half, with up to 10 per cent of prohibited sites still getting through.3

VPN’s will be set up to get around filtering things and this will be sent through these and they can’t be filtered so the scheme will be ineffective!



Most child pornography sent by file transfer, which can’t be blocked by the net filter as it only blocks sites. This pornography does not get sent over the net. It is encrypted either by VPN or peer-peer or sent via Australia Post on CD’s

If the software is based on keyword-filtering then it can be rendered ineffective by simply re-naming images. If it is image-based then it would have to intercept
the image publishes this within in itself, check the image and then forward the image if it is legitimate: This will slow the internet to a crawl! This image filtering would require massive computing power which drastically exceeds that already provided!

If the software bans IP addresses or website names, this is extremely easy to overcome as spammers already do this now on a regular basis.

Even child protection groups have criticised the move as ineffective and at risk of blocking legitimate sites.4

If websites are banned then new websites can be set within minutes.

Unnecessary
There is already software freely available through many ISP’s to block inappropriate content and the previous government provided free software filters for anyone to download from NetAlert.gov.au. Surely the solution lies in refining the available software and promoting the fact that it is freely available rather than censoring the internet thereby treating us all like children.

Money would be better spent informing people of these choices rather than censoring the internet, trying to solve a problem that really can only be solved at the level of the individual household. (Users should elect to have the net filter – that is optional to the user!)

The Solution
The previous Government spent $84.8 million on a scheme to provide free PC-based filtering that allows parents to track and monitor their child’s access to the internet, and thus intervene concerning harmful content that couldn’t be picked up by an ISP filter. The software will not slow down the internet or interfere with online commerce. This software will cost less to run. We should be spending the money promoting this instead!

In addition, we should be making sure that the Australian Federal Police's Online Child Sexual Exploitation Team has the resources needed to reduce child exploitation or abuse on the internet.5

The best protection is to put the computer in the lounge room where parents can exercise supervision.

Ineffective software can be improved, as this is what is done with antiviral and antispyware software on a daily basis, so that if the existing filtering software is ineffective it can be improved!

Rochelle Macredie
Lawyer


Endnotes

1 Department of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts, Review of the Operation of Schedule 5 to the Broadcasting Services Act 1992 (2004) 3. After outlining the cost implications of an ISP based internet filter, the report said: ‘Given the limited benefits of an ISP-level filtering system, the costs of a mandated requirement to filter do not appear justified.’

2. See GetUp website Blogs on Save the Net Campaign “Irene Graham: Secret, unaccountable, censorship is incompatible with democracy” http://www.getup.org.au/blogs/view.php?id=1565
Accessed
on 30 December 2008

3 Liberal Senator Helen Coonan (former Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the Arts), Protecting Families Online – Address to the National Press Club, Canberra, 14 June 2006 <http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/36697/20071105-
0005/www.minister.dcita.gov.au/media/speeches/protecting_families_online.html>.

4
Sydney Morning Herald 1 December 2005 "Children's welfare groups slam net filters" Asher Moses

5 Luke McIlveen, ‘No Money Available to Chase Internet Paedophiles’, Herald Sun (Melbourne) 18 June 2007
<http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21923386-662,00.html>.

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sintch
December 2nd, 2008

First it was the "Freedom of Information" legislation which was going to "protect" our privacy. We all know now that it was just censorship.

Now the problem with child predators trawling the internet is so overwhelming that immediate action is warranted. ahem.. sound familiar?

Vote NO to any more govt censorship.

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Ailie
December 2nd, 2008

If this policy comes to fruition, I will be sending the bill for my online game subscriptions and high quota internet package to the Government to pay until it's removed. I already get lagged out whilst gaming at peak frequency times with supposed 'high speed' access, any form of filtering is going to slow this even further and possibly to the point where it will no longer be tangible to play, and I'm already committed to a long term ISP plan and gaming subscription.

Might not sound like much to most people, but I love my gaming, I met my soulmate through doing it and have no intentions to stop, but bringing in a compulsory clean feed is probably going to bring it all to a close. Will my life end? No, but the quality of it will be lowered. I am more comfortable interacting online than in person, and since I spend all day dealing with real life people, the last thing I want to do is deal with more when I get home. Gaming is perfect for me, I've developed more as a person since playing, fallen in love for the first time and don't feel like such an outsider anymore. Of course, it's really only us people who are gamers who understand this.

Maybe I'll just move countries and live somewhere that respects people rights and freedoms. Oh, and it also means I'll be able to rent an apartment or home I can actually afford with my dog, another thing I can't do in this country.

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Liz45
December 2nd, 2008

Rallies are being held in all capital cities on the 13th of December following the success of the 1st of November protests nation wide by the Digital Liberty Coalition, more information can be found at: http://nocensorship.info

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ozziejorge
December 2nd, 2008

Well, we had our guns taken off us with Port Arthur.
We had an election stooged with "children overboard"
Now, we are in the situation that ANY site the PTB deem unsuitable "needs to be filtered .... FOR MY AND MY GRANDKIDS' PROTECTION".
BUT ... there is no list of sites, nor is there going to be a list of sites.
And we have troops in Afghanistan because they are doing this, and we are caning China because they are doing this?????
Yea .. well ... THAT is the price we pay for democracy.
Rule by the Party Dictatorship in Australia!!!

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louise
December 2nd, 2008

Internet censorship - as proposed - is like a compulsary immunisation against a disease which doesn't threaten lives or livelihoods... and the injection has serious side effects and may not even control the disease anyway. No community would accept that, so why should we accept internet censorship?

Television and film shocked many in its day, so they came up with a ratings system, and timeslots. But ultimately it is still 'user beware'.

The government should stop wrapping us in cotton wool and start giving people an education so they can take responsibility for their own actions.

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mr t
December 2nd, 2008

The more they(...) try to repress society the less control they will actually have. I will be interested to see what becomes of this.

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Beijing buys Our Government .
December 2nd, 2008

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says he will raise concerns with the Chinese Government about internet censorship during the Olympics. Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is concerned by the censorship stance in Beijing has Beijing Bought Our Government .

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BoohooStu
December 2nd, 2008

Politicians telling lies
See the scales inside their eyes...

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David Aitken
December 2nd, 2008

Not only don't I agree with the censorship side of things but I am one of the unlucky Australians that live in an area where we have no access at all to broadband but yet I still live in Metro Adelaide.

If they go thru with this stupidity not only will I penalised for my choices of sites I might wish to goto but I will also have to put up with even slower dial up access.

I am ashamed to say that I voted for this government. Lord let it all be a bad dream.

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Early Drone
December 3rd, 2008

I certainly feel that censorship is not on!
If the internet finally achieves it's intended purpose;
turning us into brain-dead, entertainment addicted robots, which can self replicate and self repair... then I want to be properly entertained, ok?!
Our masters have spent billions learning how to keep animals happy, so bring on the smutt!!

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Krichan
December 3rd, 2008

Slowing down one of the slowest networks in the developed world (ZDNET survey) even further is economically suicidal. Instead, put the effort into creating a pervasive proper broadband network available to the vast majority of Australians at internationally competitive prices and internationally competitive speeds. The Net today is economically akin to the trains of the 19th century. We need it now and we need it fast. Current efforts are being too effected by commerical concerns of Telstra in particular. This is a service that the government needs to fund and manage because its not viable for large parts of Australia to pay the actual cost of delivering the service to them. It must be subsidised.

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Kate
December 3rd, 2008

This is a real issue. I would like to see techncial experts protect our digital economy by suggesting alternative ways to reduce internet crime while freeing up legitimate sites. I agree over regulation of the net is not effective and will destroy the digital economy. However, we need to also work together to broaden the benefits of access to the net so they are generally known to the voters.

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Indeed
December 3rd, 2008

Interestingly, I have peers who have seen the dynamic filter in action. The HTTPS filter works by interrogating both your PC and the host site to make sure they are still the right site (compared to its list of blocked sites, and allowed through if it is ok). It does this every 5 seconds or so. What does this do for e-commerce?


The techical stuff:
1. It means EVERY time you want to use your credit card online, or do any secure transaction, your bandwith will be crippled as you are forced to upload and download interrogation requests that you don't actually want. (incidentally, you'll have to pay for those too, as they count towards your ISP's downloadable limits)

2. Web services use SOAP over HTTP/S to communicate. Some of them are time and tamper sensitive. Going through a process of interrogation and response for potentially every web service call will either cripple or destroy many web service applications.

3. Database connections via HTTPS and web services will suffer significant slowdown, making data retrieval and updates to the databasee very difficult. Every database that currently communicates over the internet will need it's procedures re-written to accommodate extra time-to-live for actions on the database or else the timeout will cause the operation to fail and roll back.

The non-technical stuff:

Web banking will be so slow and unreliable that you are better off going to the shops and lining up.

Ebay will be slower than a wet week.

Booking flights online will be incredibly time consuming, and also unreliable.

Internet cafes will suffer terribly.

Checking your work email using webmail will be slower than driving to the office to check it.

Dialup users (don't laugh, rurally, that is all that is currently available) will get better results with a can and string arrangement.

The "Rubbish" you so desperately want to avoid will be labelled ever more innocuously and benignly until the filter cannot distinguish between the sites
"Find out what might be wrong with your child, so you can make them well" and
"Hardcore child porn XXX site number 45".

Peer to Peer transfers are ignored, and as we know from experience, if you close one vector in communication, another will fill the gap. Why cripple just the one protocol/port? It's like building a dam, but only building the top half, because that's the bit that has the water you want to stop.

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Karen B
December 3rd, 2008

This is crap !!
l wish the damn government worried as much about running the country, then we'd all be a lot better off.
Leave our internet alone !!!!!

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Lulu
December 3rd, 2008

Does this mean that the government will block all religious content as well, for in my opinion nothing is more abusive to children than religion.
If a child has to live in fear of going to 'hell' for things that they can hardly understand then that is 'abuse'.

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Luke
December 7th, 2008

Lulu.

Thanks for your excellent point.

There is a fledgling movement to apply censorship standards to the bible, ultimately seeing it sold sealed with under 18 warnings.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21741635-5001021,00.html

Luke

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December 3rd, 2008

The problem is, too many of the politicians have no real idea of how the internet works. The censoring needs to start at the computer, not the internet. Thus you get (well somewhat effective) programs like Netnanny to protect children, rather than try to control the entire internet.

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honest john
December 3rd, 2008

news flash "the world is flat"

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Paul
December 4th, 2008

A useful alternative would be to "rate" web sites and put this into a format which can be easily imported into firewall programs so parents or concerned non parents can censor their own internet usage easily. The Australian government could even develop their own censorship program (hopefully very resource efficient so I would not even notice the change in performance) to work along side my existing firewall to do the job. Importantly the choice would be the individuals not political.

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Andy Wells
December 4th, 2008

I discussed this topic last week in my weekly video on GameArena http://www.gamearena.com.au/videos/latest.php/bigpond-gamearena-weekly-update-28-nov-2008

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Pro-Clean Feed
December 4th, 2008

“Any filtering technology requires processing which has to reduce download speed. This downside has to be balanced against any perceived benefits,” says Bloch.

“to protect Australian families and kids from some material that is currently on the net.” quote from Stephen Conroy (ABC interview)

Surely Bloch is not suggesting that protecting internet speeds is more important than protecting children against sites that are inappropriate (like porn/child-porn/gambling)?

Yes, there are ways around the Clean Feed, yes people can still access the information deemed ‘inappropriate content’, this Policy is about protecting children. I’m not sure know why people would be against this?

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researcher
December 4th, 2008

As a PhD in computer scientist working in sexual health research, the proposed filtering is a nightmare on every front. I have the technical experience to know that it won't achieve it's aims without blocking legitimate content and slowing the internet to unacceptable speeds. My research, which the government pays for, and is for the benefit of public health in Australia will be stifled by these changes. This will have negative public health impacts on our country! If you look at the membership of the government advisory panel, most have no technical expertise or understanding of the difficulties involved in rolling out such a program (lawyers and policy writers etc) and of the remaining members that may have access to internet expertise, there is not a single one that doesn't have obvious conflicts of interest for providing advice to the government on this issue. Unbelievable? Look it up! It's absolutely crazy!

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Robbo
December 4th, 2008

Let's all inundate Conroy's email, fax, phones, let's shut him down and see how he likes it, go to this link http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/senators/homepages/senators.asp?id=3L6 and you will find all the details ( I wonder if he'll shut this down when / if his draconian laws come to being ). What is this incessant need for the Labor Party to want to control us all in every thing we do, they did my head in when I needed a bloody license to go fishing with my son.

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Al the Almighty
December 4th, 2008

God Bless their little Politically correct minds. Seems their little minds wander (as Joe Bejelke Petterson once said) to each side of a barbed wire fence. "Yes, we will have a Broadband system that is World competetive" AND "We are going to cut out any porno from Debbie does Dallas to a Mother Breast feeding her Child". What absolute RUBBISH!!!!
I pay my money to have BROADBAND and NOT Dial up speeds.Can we educate this fools in the way of Internet. If we can't, Then God help us All. NO FILTERING PLEASE.

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dominic
December 5th, 2008

On the 13th of December, 2008 in all capital cities the Digital Liberty Coalition have organised rallies to show your opposition of the filter. They're running with a grass roots style campaign of activism to heighten media awareness of the issue and illustrate just how real our irritation is against this rubbish; yet also throwing down a legal gauntlet of challenging the legislation behind the filter.

I'm in Adelaide and we've got nearing a thousand people coming to attend already, check your nearest capital, go to http://nocensorship.info now and get active!

(Note to mods: I've noticed there's no link to the direct action campaign from this website yet, yet you've claimed to the media you're working with them, you might want to get on that considering the national rally is next Saturday?)

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overkill
December 5th, 2008

The labor government seems hell bent on blowing money on an unworkable Internet filtering scheme that is flawed in so many ways. Rather than putting it towards upgrading the current infrastructure to give us REAL broadband speeds to rival other developed countries around the world.
I cannot believe i voted for Labor as well. We now Have Conroy waisting money on something that will never ever work successfully (Look at China) & we have Treasurer Wayne Swann who seems to like to give out money to everyone & to put us into deficit as early as late next year. Even though I didn't like the Howard Government, ANYTHING is better than this.. :(

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The Rawhide Kid
December 5th, 2008

Don't worry, If its going to hurt us then it will also hurt the Governments access to the web as well. Then they will do a re think.

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Tony
December 5th, 2008

Most people here fail to acknowledge that the Internet is not a playground for kids, which is the preferred platform the government is using to debate the merits of its social controls and censorship. The Internet is for everyone. Why do the majority of people for whom the internet is used for sacrifice their liberties? Why isn't the debate rather shifted to whether children should even be allowed to access the Internet. Why should the Internet have an 18+ ban applied "at the source" for everyone involved? Educate the parents. Don't patronize the Australian public on what we can and cannot access, arguing that our kids should be an example to us all.

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AustJamesL
December 7th, 2008

Some interesting points there. Maybe under 18s should only be allowed to access the internet from ISPs with restricted/approved content only?

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Bushy
December 6th, 2008

Hi,
This filtering is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. Is it not time for Conroy to be removed?? This is not the way to stop these people's activities. Does this fool realize that it will render dial-up useless, satellite is slow enough and I can't afford to pay more on a pension. Who is going to expose this goose for misleading the people and parliament as this act is NOT mandatory overseas and is Rudd an indian giver, telling Aussies that broadband will be improved in the bush - HA HA This country is not communist ??? I am over 21 and think it's up to me what content I view on the net. Rudd want's to remember his famous words - "No-ones future is certain in politics" so I say down with the clown Aust. doesn't need to be the laughing stock of the world because of Conroy's little agenda. Hey Kev, my kids are over 21 and vote too!! Conroy and Fielding will be the downfall of this crowd unless this stupidity is stopped, people should be asking themselves why they voted for these inadequate losers.

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WhiteLight
December 6th, 2008

Listen Gaz I understand you feel strongly about this but think about what you have said ? Very few things are worth spending your life in gaol for , about the only thing I think would be worth that, is topping some paedophile that harmed or killed your child after the legal system had failed to nail them.

I'm 100% ANTI-filter but the "crime" of the filter pales into insignifigance compared to this CRIME of...

the murder & genocide of the innocent peoples of 2 countries that posed NO threat to Australia what so ever.

Howard and fellow WAR CRIMINALS committed Australia to 2 wars that were UNwanted by clearly the vast majority of Australians and this crime would likely be more worthy of your anger than the totalitarian filter.

Do something sensible and practical , turn up at your state capital anti-filter demonstration on the 13/12/08 but understand just like the largest demos Australia had ever seen against Howards wars the government may just ignore the vast majority of Australians wills , so be prepared for disappoinment but "maintain the rage" and "don't give up the fight" .

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The Rawhide Kid
December 6th, 2008

Would'nt this net censorship also effect the government's use of the Web as well? Or will they be using an uncensored access to the web?

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SASR
December 6th, 2008

Conroy should be shot along with anyone in that government who agrees with his plan.

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Steve Fiedler
December 7th, 2008

Welcome to Australia to new China!

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Kevin Dudd
January 15th, 2009

Maybe he spent to much time as a diplomat in China that he wants to model Australia after that oppressive nation.

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Jason
December 7th, 2008

Microsoft offer a free family internet safety program for just such filtering, so why is our govt attempting to censor the entire country?

Its all about control they are scared we may learn the truth about how they operate.

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AustJamesL
December 7th, 2008

Ok, I can write an essay on this topic after more than 10 years in the industry, but I will keep this one short.

This proposed legislation is typical from a government that is out of touch with technology. There are many other areas that need to be focused on when it comes to the internet in Australia.

In addition to the fact that internet content filtering will slow down the internet and be ineffective in filtering target web content, here are a few reasons off the top of my head why internet filtering for illegal material is a complete waste of money.

The following cannot be filtered in a real world scenario:

1. IRC
2. Messenger/GoogleTalk/Yahoo Messenger file transfers
3. VPN
4. FTP
5. P2P file sharing

Fact is that the internet was never designed to be filtered and was in fact designed for redundancy during nuclear war (google: ARPANET). When you break it down, internet infrastructure will simply not allow effective filtering of network traffic (as per the above 5 technologies). It is near impossible to filter network traffic for content.

In fact, you will find that most illegal content is not accessed from the web in the first place.

James

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trial
December 7th, 2008

If only some of these P.O.V could make it into the Daily Telegraph!

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Need to take action
December 8th, 2008

I think the major question to be asked is:

What can we (the general public) do to stop the Government from wasting anymore of our tax payer money on this ridiculous filtering scheme, and to have them spend it on something more beneficial?

Surely, if we live in a democratic society, then the public have the right to force the government to stop this. (What about a referendum?) Instead of wasting money on the filtering scheme, allocate the funds to better policing, better health care, better education, better roads, etc (the list is endless).

I've signed the GetUp campaign, I've sent a letter to my local political member, and I've joined in the protest rallys as well (and normally I don't get involved in this type of crap). But my concerns are that even these actions will not help sway the Government and it's choice to go ahead with the filtering scheme.

I agree that Children should be stopped from seeing bad content on the web, but hasn't the law always said that it is the job of the Parents to enforce this, or the schools, or the social clubs - i.e. whomever is the responsible guardian of the child at a certain point in time?

I don't know about this anymore. I think that the lucky country will soon have a differnt tagline associated with it. This all seems to be leading to an oppressive society where freedom of speech is fine, as long as you agree with the current policy makers. (It's only a short step from Internet censorship to other forms of censorship as well).

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Computer User
December 8th, 2008

It can happen here too I guess

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/07/brit_isps_censor_wikipedia/

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Mike
December 8th, 2008

Once again ignorance is the profiter of evil. Evil being fascism, control by one human being of another through overt or covert means, and immorality.

Immorality being child porn, we can thank those losers for this.

We can also thank all the people who choose not to participate in their reality by being informed properly, and not watching mainstream snooze (nooz).

Everyone needs to wake up and realise that the first job of a citizen and patriot is the defence and protection of OUR democracy. Paying taxes for helping explode human beings in Iraq doesn't mean you did your bit for democracy, quite the opposite, defence of democracy means being informed and knowledgeable, awake, street smart and morally complicit in your own good health.

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Mike
December 8th, 2008

Does everyone thing / assume that when Rudd the Dudd signed Kyoto it was also such a good idea, and he knew fully what he was doing. If he is prepared to do this he is either a) a puppet doing his puppet masters work to disinform and deintelligise the population b) a moron who just didn't go to school, didn't study social science and has no concept of the last 100 years of history and WHY the free flow of information is the foundation of democracy c) is a fascist in disguise. Can any one say green tax the first global tax administered by the first fledgling arm of a world government and global economic control system of global debt and slavery of nations and people to a hidden corporate elite.

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Trust the Power of Truth
December 9th, 2008

The internet is our greatest hope for organising, uniting, all who care for a better future, to action! For the greatest good for the greatest number of people,

The establishment is scared of the power people have through the internet because the sustainable world we're moving towards is bad for corporate profits! Truth is bad for profit! And the corporates cant control the empowering info we're finding and sharing.

They are shit scared of losing control over us!

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Scott
December 9th, 2008

The government is asking for feedback http://www.dbcde.gov.au/communications_for_business/industry_development/digital_economy/future_directions_blog/topics/minister_tanners_welcome

I
wonder how long until they stop asking for feedback.

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gurujim
December 14th, 2008

It wasn't that long...*wry smile*
Quote:
Error code [404 - Not found]

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morrie
December 9th, 2008

Great work GetUp!
I note that The Age online 9/12, 5:30pm has used one of your images on its front page! Couldn't see any attribution...

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TCK
December 9th, 2008

I am 58 years old and quite capable of deciding what I wish to view on the internet. I am already told that if I wish exercise my right to an opinion I may be racist, if I call a spade a spade I risk being politicly incorrect. First they TRY to take away my freedom of speech now they want to dictate what I watch. I fail to see how not allowing people to watch something that we all do or try to do in our own homes legally makes any sense at all.

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JC
December 10th, 2008

How ironic!

Kevin Rudd not only speaks Chinese, he acts Chinese as well.

His grandstanding on Tibet was just that; Grandstanding. How on earth can he claim the moral high ground when he proposes a firewall to rival the infamous Great Firewall of China.

On lots of things I can't defend the Howard government, but at least they gave families the choice of whether they wanted to have a firewall or not with their downloadable filter.

Wonder when our access to wikipeadia will blocked?


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roscelin
December 11th, 2008

After 355 comments, and my quick perusal of them - it seems quite obvious that everyone is missing the point.
Understandable given that, as a political entity, Australia has no real comprehension/context for what a Bill of Rights is/does, and therefore defending freedom of expression (regardless of the media of delivery: electronic, pulp, paint, photographic . . .) will always be devoid of the essential argument.
Our media has always been censored - so why now all the hoo-haa over net censorship?
Where was everyone when Packer took over half of our media interests, and Murdoch the other half?
Anyway, can I recommend that people, before they get on their high horse and bluster and billow about the indignities of it all (and then start throwing around the standard bromides in repsonse to this most recent attack on our freedoms . . .) pick up a book by Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Voltaire, indeed any of the Enlightenment authors/thinkers, so that just what 'rights' are, how they CAN ONLY BE expressed/actioned in a modern political sphere, and why there is just so much crap obliterating proper intellectual argument regarding all these associated topics flourishes. In other words: put it all into current and historical perspective.
Only once people become armed with the appropriate intellectual armour required to stifle the power-mongers in our system of government (and never, never forget, power-mongers exist across both sides of politics . . .) can we be assured of the freedoms we all expect, and respect.
Until that time, all opinions, whilst impoortant as part of the 'democratic' process, are only that: opinions.

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JoL
December 11th, 2008

"roscelin" - whilst appreciative of your comments/opinion I too have been closely following what has been going on and I have to disagree with you. Yes we have always had some degree of censorship BUT what is proposed is just flat out wrong!!!

When does any freely elected government have the right to impose such a draconian level of censorship on its people without giving them a choice?? Are we not a democratic nation, with the right to free choice?? The govt has not only taken it upon themselves to introduce this level of censorship but from an original list of 1300 urls its now added another 10,000 sites (with more to be added) which BTW is a secret list chosen by, and increased at the discretion of, who????

I think the money they have allocated for this ridiculous proposal is better off given to the Federal Police & Education Dept to help them in the never ending battle against paedophiles.

As has already been mentioned the interenet is NOT a babysitter and its about time parents take reponsiblity for their children. Whilst there are no kids in my house fulltime I do have nieces and nephews around constantly and always supervise them when they are online, watching TV/DVDs etc etc. There are plenty of free filters available for download for free online - but better be quick if you want the Net Nanny filter on the govts website because it is about to be pulled down (brilliant move that one!!).

By all means if you feel a better "Net Nanny" filter is required then please go ahead and introduce it BUT make it OPTIONAL for those that need to download it. It should not be imposed on those of us who do NOT want or need it. This is an extremely costly and unpopular proposal which Senator Conroy doesn't even have the decency/confidence to be questioned about - despite numerous attempts by various parties. How timely was it to have the recent Internet Watchdog Foundation disaster in the UK which clearly demonstrated how stupid this system will be.

I believe there is a hidden agenda behind all this and its about time the govt just admitted it.

As someone cleverly pointed out earlier:

Twentieth Century = Burn Books
Twenty first Century = Burn the Internet

Hopefully this won't be what Australia is remembered for!!

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roscelin
December 11th, 2008

Hey whoa there JoL . . . we're on the same side.
I think the proposition is unbelievable - the mere fact that the bastards are trying it infuriates me.
I was just trying to suggest that jumping up and down wailing about it because it isn't right won't do.
You have to fight fire with fire . . .
Tell them why it is wrong in a convincing way: because a) governments have no right dictating morals to its citizenry, b) that it has no right involving itself with any industry (for that matter), c) that the Rights of Man (read the 'individual') as surmised by the Enlightenment Thinkers is not only NOT 'old fashioned thinking', its so very apt and crucial today simply because of the intellectual vacuum in philosophy and they no it, d) so on and so on . . .

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Axira
December 12th, 2008

This is outrageous!

I understand society wants to seek protection for children surfing on the internet, but these are draconian measures with little effect.

Peer to peer communication and informal networks are more likely the methods used for distributing child pornography, or to lure and abuse children.

In Rudd's words "tough" action is needed to combat this form of child abuse. Simply filtering and allowing it to exist in Cyberspace elsewhere does not do the trick for me!

Direct action needs to be taken, more resources should be allocated to fight these crimes at the heart of their existence: those committing the crimes. This is the only way our children will be safe.

And yes, then they might still encounter websites with "inappropriate" content, but search filters can be installed on individual computer solving this to a great extend.
And has anyone watched TV lately?

YOu can not protect your children from everything; taking protective measures as much as possible while maintaining our democratic freedoms and more than ever:
talk to your children,
teach parents about the dangers out and how to discuss it with their children,
Teach about it in school.
Children need to be aware these things exist and society needs to enable them with strategies to cope with these encounters.

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Katweazel
December 12th, 2008

One reason this proposal is so insideous is that people wishing to research say a personal medical condition or perhaps a person doing rsearch is that they too wil lbe blocked depending on what the trigger words are for the search criteria. Secondly,the thought that th eNet could be any slower than it is horrifies me as where I am we only have 28k dial up. It can take 5mins to open browser. Governments worldide are too paternalistic and it is up to parents to act responsibly, as the filter will only impact on normal users not porn addicts who can bypass the filters anyway.
As always happens laws introduced to curtail the minority impact on the majority and fail to achieve what was intended in the first place. Nothing new is it?

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d3fo
December 12th, 2008

I don't how blanketing the internet feed to australian users can possibly be 100% monitored ie...

* Proxy Servers
* P2P Services
* IRC
* FTP
* Encrypted Virtual Tunnels

.. the list goes on .. and on .. what a monumental waste of time and money! Good one Conroy! :/

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Marcus Hale
December 12th, 2008

This is the first time in the known history of this world that so much information has been so available to us, ordinary people. As knowledge gives power, governments everywhere regard this erosion of their monopoly on information as threatening particularly when it exposes their calumnies and their relationships with the immensely rich and powerful.
An invasion by them at this point is an absolute frontal attack on freedom of speech and information, by the thought police of Big Brother. Australia is already one of the most government controlled societies in the world. The internet is the frontier of freedom of speech and the greatest service to ordinary people all over the world to obtain information, good, fantastic, and bad. We have to educate ourselves with our own moral codes and discrimination as to how we access the information, what we make of it, and how we use it.
The government also dislikes the public airing of their tricks and reprehensible bahavior by journalists who can no longer get their material printed by major media. The concern for our children is a pathetic excuse for marching into thought control territory.
I am happy in the knowledge that most children properly brought up with sensible guidelines from good parenting will not fall foul of thought debasement from the internet.

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roscelin
December 12th, 2008

BRAVO Marcus Hale!

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honest john
December 14th, 2008

whats everyone panicking about .the geeks say you can get round it

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Tom
December 13th, 2008

Writing from San Francisco, I would like to chime in here. Even our (soon to be departed) crazies in Washington didn't come up with an idiotic idea like this. Universal censorship, even of bad things like kiddie porn or terrorist tools, is a really dumb idea and it is the nose of the camel in the tent. Up to now this sort of thing has been the province of totalitarian governments like the Chinese, Egyptians, Iranians, and even a few democracies uptight about their history like Turkey and Germany. If Australia does this, it would set a precedent that this kind of idea is appropriate for consideration by countries that protect their free speech like Australia (we thought) and the US and England and... So, we care too. Please don't do it.

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Liam Vickery
December 14th, 2008

Responding to an earlier comment saying

"Whats everyone panicking about .the geeks say you can get round it"

The problem is, that this inane proposed scheme that can and will be 'easily got around' costs a LOT of taxpayer money, and wastes a lot of resources for nothing, and will make things harder for the decent people.

The crooks and deviates will find ways around it with their seedy muck anyway, so it just costs the average Joe one way or another...

This whole stupid idea must be stopped - I have heard that state schools already have this type of filtering in place and the kids just use proxies etc. to get around it anyway so we need to nip this problem in the bud...

The internet works fine already - my only problem is the slow speeds here in Australia, so I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT MORE EXPENSIVE, SLOWER INTERNET THANKS VERY MUCH CONROY, DON'T BE AN IGNORANT MORON!

Why not actually be a man here and admit you are wrong????
You seem like a little 'Johhny' here to me - Like the environmental and other obvious issues he eventually had to backflip on. He had not the courage to admit he was wrong, and I don't like that in a person - Just ego masking insecurities... Or deception, ulterior motives, and worse.

If the internet works fine how it is, and parents aren't interested in the free software available right now that does this already...

What is the real point in all of this? Just another waste of millions of dollars and time.

How ironic - The Communications minister wants to LIMIT and CONTROL our COMMUNICATION!!!! I find this thought horrible and I cannot help but see this as Orwellian, and the opposite of liberty.

This will probably open up a whole lot of new unprecedented, unforeseen cyber-crime in my opinion... And organised crime will be at play soon enough if this stupid plan gets passed.

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Floyd
December 15th, 2008

Never before has any Australian government demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of how the internet works.

How are they going to stop VPN tunnels to the States or Europe. Off shore Proxy servers/p2p servers. Sure it will stop 'casual' kiddie fiddlers but the hardcore ones will have the means to get around their crappy censorship.
It's just so stupid it's not funny. Who advises these people? Someone who had read 1 issue of PC User and is an 'expert'?

Is this Rudd's plan to bring us into line with Maoist China?

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LJF
December 15th, 2008

Censorship infuriates me to no end, but I am terrified at what may come next.

Think of the technologies being developed, thought control is SCI-FI now, but for how much longer? Of all the people who I DON'T want ruling my life, the ones in power now rank pretty damned high.

Rudd has generally disappointed me. Even before I voted for him (regrets) I thought he was not all he was said to be, but he is more "politically correct" than I ever thought possible. We cannot protect children from everything, and in my opinion people are already protected far too much. This is the real world, people die, people suffer and people are NOT born equal. There are rich and there are poor, in fact, the gap is far wider now than it has ever been. Sure, it is a good thing to strive for equality and freedom, but this is exactly the opposite of freedom and equality. This is someone so utterly devoted to their own views that they seem to think it their right to impose by force this view onto others.

Please, we are getting closer and closer to Brave New World/1984 and it is really scaring me. Can we pull Australia out of the nosedive it is in at the moment before we find ourselves with too little freedom to even cry out in despair as we see the world we have let ourselves be drawn into?

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honest john
December 15th, 2008

LJF get a grip "Censorship infuriates me to no end, but I am terrified at what may come next."
we have had 11years of terror from the howard dictatorship 10s of 1000s dead in iraq & afganistan ,and your'e terified.
me,me,me,me,me get your head out of your arse.

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roscelin
December 21st, 2008

"howard dictatorship"????!!!!????!!!!????!!!!????!!!!
My God you lefties are sooooooooo much in denial.
Don't get me wrong - both sides of government (although their close associations with the churches - The Left, the Catholics; The Right, the Protestant/Baptist/CofE axis - I prefer to call it the goDvernment ;-P ) are are bad as each other - but at least the Howard government re-empowered the middle class (read financially and through re-enfranchisement), which caused the re-empowerment of everyone else.
I remain forever gob-smacked by the socialist/statist mob who simply removed the entire fall of the Berlin Wall from their own subjective histories!
You think howard was a dictator (all your rhetoric aside)????
You need to spend a week or two in Afghanistan or Baghdad and see what oppression is really like . . . .
Me thinks that you are the one who suffers anal retention - mainly because your own head is causing a blockage . . .

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honest john
December 21st, 2008

roscelin when did you visit Afghanistan or Baghdad & how long did you stay there ??

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Andyl
December 16th, 2008

Do we really need a government to say what we can and can't watch / read / listen to? When are individuals going to take responsibility for their own actions, whether it be choice of "entertainment" or "what to spend their money on" or, dare I ask it, "Who to Vote for?" Please, let me decide for myself, in accordance with my moral values. Also, could I remind the Politicians, that they are there to serve us, not to tell us what to do.

My only consolation, if it comes in, is that I will be able to nominate all Government web-sites as being unacceptable, and banish them to cyberspace, forever.....

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workingmum
December 23rd, 2008

Thankyou for your classy analysis of the situation, it so helps us all to assess the worthiness of your opinion.

I am interested though to know by your assessment, which would you be Mr Han, the ___ or the dog?

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phildeerhound
December 18th, 2008

I think Mr Han your post rather comes outside the Getup guidelines

"Abusive, racist or expletive language won't be tolerated. "

nuff said

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honest john
December 18th, 2008

Mr Han good to see you made it back from melomime mountain. now we can have a serious debate

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JG
December 19th, 2008

I'll admit to start with that I haven't read all the comments above (a little too many), so someone may have debated this point already.
Of course, testing on a limited system will produce statistics that show a slow down of the internet. At the same time, we know that the porn industry uses a huge proportion of the internet an there are a growing number of sites moving from pictures to video. If you can curb the amount of video material going through ISP servers of course the server and in turn the internet will actually speed up. So over the long haul, this type of censorship will actually speed the internet up, not slow it down.
Secondly, I work for a tertiary training organisation and mentor many young men who are trapped in a cycle of internet porn - I have had a few come to me in sheer desperation to destroy the habit because it is destroying their intimacy with other people and destroying their relationships with women.
History has shown us over and over again that collapse in society (both economically and socially) is always proceeded by the breakdown of family values and the tolerance that says "anything goes", "you are your own boss". This of course, will plunge us into the dark ages anyway and we won't have to worry about internet speed!!

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Lost its way
December 20th, 2008

The goverment has lost its way the only sites that should be on the black list are:
goggle.net
themexp.org
goggle.cc
goggle.com
smileycentral.com
zwinky.com (Sexual and virus-site)

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John Howe
December 21st, 2008

It appears to me that everyone is missing the main reason why Conroy and this Labor Government is following this path. It is not about protecting the children from the pedophiles and other low life's as Conroy tells you, it is about shutting down the internet as we know it and instigating a new internet system known as Internet 2. Under this new system, you will be paying a fee for every page you view on top of your connection fee along with fingerprint scanners on every keyboard to identify every individual who accesses the internet. There will be massive restrictions on what you view and can access, any site that has an opposing view to the establishment in news, medicine, politics etc will be forced to shut down. All this is to happen before 2012 and the only way we can defeat this is getting all of the backbench politicians who properly do not realize the full story to stand up against this travesty and also informing your internet provider that you will be stopping your connection to the web. All the governments of the world are tied into this new system along with all of the main telcos. They have all the equipment and software in place now and have been informing us since 2001 in what is to happen.You will not be given a choice to stay with the current system because the present internet will not be in existence, it will be Internet 2 and Big Brother.

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pants
December 22nd, 2008

This is disgraceful. Anyone serious about peer-to-peer sharing can easily set up an ecrypted SSH connection using freeware in a matter of minutes making peer-to-peer filtering a complete waste of time. This will only result in slower significantly slower data transfer speeds.

The internet filtering too could be circumvented by also setting up SSH proxies hosted outside of Australia. Would be interested to see if any SSH proxy would be blacklisted and blocked too. How could they prove that such a proxy was being abused to look at 'illegal' material since everything is encrypted?

This is the most ridiculous scheme i've ever heard of and puts our country in the dark ages. The techo's will easily work around this filter.

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David
December 22nd, 2008

I guess this mean a harmless documentary like this one will be banned then!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8172271955308136871&hl=en

It’s
got nothing to do with child porn, but a lot to do with why they want to censor the internet.

people need to wakeup!

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Colin Fong
December 23rd, 2008

Taken from http://www.news.com.au/technology/story/0,28348,24833959-5014239,00.html

"Senator
Conroy said the internet filter would be in-step with existing methods to censor books, films and video games."

I don't recall being okay with censorship of books film and video games either. But let's be serious, what 6 year old would actually open a copy of American Psycho or Lolita anyway, unless they were first forcibly exposed to it by an adult?

The problem with video games, and the internet, is that it can be addictive. But then again, so can smoking and gambling, yet both are very legal in this country. Smoking kills, but it's legal. People choose to smoke even though it causes cancer, but it's something that society tolerates, because it's something people CHOOSE to do. Adults have the choice to do these things.

We have something that has proven to kill people and in some cases destroy the lives of many. and we made it legal.
We have something that offends the moral fabric of certain people, and we're deciding we should ban it. Where is the logic in that?

So I find it hypocritical that smoking and gambling both of which can destroy lives and ruin families to be something that is deemed to be acceptable.

But web sites, films and videogames that are deemed on a subjective sense to be innapropirate for adults are simply banned or censored.

While I do believe child be available to children. The latter I don't believe is something that interests them until their teen years anyway. If it's on the history list, then I believe parents should have that talk with them as soon as possible.

A child can just as easlily be stopped from buying a cigarrette or from gambling at home, as he can be stopped looking up objectionable sites by family or friends.

One set of parents are enough for a family. Do we really need another set?

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Kythin
December 23rd, 2008

My concern is that though you can get around it easily, if ALL your traffic that goes through the filter is garbage (vpn'd or something), then they might flag you for investigation of some kind.

Also if they build this huge filter and they can't force everyone to use it, maybe there will be penalties if you're found to be using circumvention methods. It would be a really really easy way to generate revenue like that.

"Oh hey, 100% of your http traffic we can't read, you MUST be doing something wrong. Prove you aren't in court."

Might be being a bit alarmist, but it's technically possible.My concern is that though you can get around it easily, if ALL your traffic that goes through the filter is garbage (vpn'd or something), then they might flag you for investigation of some kind.

Also if they build this huge filter and they can't force everyone to use it, maybe there will be penalties if you're found to be using circumvention methods. It would be a really really easy way to generate revenue like that.

"Oh hey, 100% of your http traffic we can't read, you MUST be doing something wrong. Prove you aren't in court."

Might be being a bit alarmist, but it's technically possible.

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Kythin
December 23rd, 2008

sorry for the double post, something messed up there O_o

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SEJB
December 23rd, 2008

What a ridiculously naive outlook on the world you have. If the filtering goes ahead, the Government can start off with a blacklist of websites, that may or may not sound reasonable. This blacklist isn't finalised...ever. They can decide on what is 'inappropriate' for the public to view, and when does it stop?? Never.

The least of our worries with this filtering system should be slow internet and blocking legit sites. This is the start of the Rudd Government telling us what we can and can't view, pretty much taking away our basic right to freedom.

As for 'anti-Australian' stories that the Governement should censor, what exactly are you referring to?? I'm sure many issues that you might consider to be 'anti-Australian' are covered daily on the news - should we have that censored, as well?

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phildeerhound
December 23rd, 2008

I note that a four page letter signed by Conroy in relation to this matter appears in pdf form at:

http://machinegunkeyboard.com/conroy/

Someone
might like to scan the 4 files comprising the complete letter with OCR and post them here

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admin
December 23rd, 2008

We're already a 3rd world country in ICT terms...if Conroy goes ahead with this mindless idiocy (is he the idiot or his advisors), he'll be out by next election (if not before) and drag Rudd into the mud with him.

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Hammy
December 27th, 2008

Banning internet porn is the proper thing to do. You can go on these sites and play the most explicit samples imaginable. Make it available after paying with a credit card so that kids are not able to view this trash. Try for yourself, go to Google and type in some nasty erotica term or phrase (make sure the google filter is off) and you will have a world of free samples at your finger tips. We need to protect our kids, this porn crap is really bad.

Perhaps some of the other censoring goes too far, but I'm all for censoring porn. I applaud the Australian government for having to the courage to stand up to it.

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phildeerhound
December 27th, 2008

To quote from Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade:

"The Australia-United States Free Trade Agreement (AUSFTA) entered into force on 1 January 2005. AUSFTA is a comprehensive agreement that covers goods, services, investment, financial services, government procurement, standards and technical regulations, telecommunications, competition-related matters, electronic commerce, intellectual property rights, labour and the environment."

Internet filtering by slowing down the communications networks, by inappropriately blocking clean sites and by a number of technical measures that will affect trade - especially in electronic data items between Australia and the united States is surely a breach of the Aust/US Free Trade Agreement

American companies SUE and in this case it would be rightly so

I'd drop this piece of crap like the hot potato it is , Conroy. The people don't want it, five international Free Trade Agreements are affected by it. A further six FTA's are under negotiation and three more including India and Indonesia are under consideration

If all the existing FTA's eventuate interference with the internet could place this country liable to pay compensation to companies affected in the USA, Thailand, Singapore, Chile, New Zealand, NOW and China, Japan, Malaysia, ASEA, India, Korea, and Indonesia, (and others)SOON

Global free trade demands you do not muck about or restrict the main tools of commerce

Run a mile Conway. Kevin mate, I'd sack him for setting you up over this.

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Jay\'s doin it again!
December 27th, 2008

Just stumbled on this. Am from the UK and know little of Australian politics but the issue here is without doubt universal.

Our civil [worldwide] liberties are being eroded by stealth, and this issue is another fine example. The Internet is the peoples last resort of true democracy, a true and powerfull platform for universal free speech that actually gets heard and is listened to by individualls that matter - PEOPLE... and thats why governments are sooooo scared.

The average politian is an egocentric creature, desperate for attention, rabid for power and once aquired, along with the perks and backroom 'deals', will do whatever to retain such. Power to an egocentric soon turns to paranoia though, it's a self-fullfilling prophacy! Moreover, recent activity on the financial front clearly shows that polititians are rapidly loosing control of even basic fundamentals, so things are going to get pretty rocky as they attempt to crawl back what they so crave...POWER.

Gordon Brown, in his 'wisdom' already is proclaiming his 'new world order'. To Mr Brown and his worldwide bunch of cronies: a PROPER, REAL and above all HONEST New World Order already exists, it's called the Internet, and it belongs to the THE PEOPLE, just as it's creator intended. It's not perfect, but it is HONEST...a word that polititians mostly don't understand!

And to all the well meaning parents: explain to your kids how the world is, how people are, how life is; empower them,teach them to think for themselves...wrapping them up in cotton-wool does them no good at all!

The freedom that the Internet represents MUST be retained, period.

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RichardoLuij
December 29th, 2008

When you first requested my signature for this petition, I knew very little about it, and so e-mailed the Minister to give him the opportunity to provide me with his side of this story.

In the month since then, two things have happened:

• I have become very much better informed as a result of a number of news stories run in the media about this crazy and dangerous initiative
• There has been a deafening silence from Senator Conroy.

In consequence, I am now adding my name to your petition. It seems the ink is not even dry on this proposal before politicians are wanting to expand its scope. The price of liberty, in this country as much as anywhere else, is eternal vigilance.

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ahaillay
December 31st, 2008

Firstly I Voted For The Labour Party To Remove The Draconian Work Place Laws Enacted By The Fascist, So Called Liberal Government.

Instead Of Trying To Impose More Restrictive Laws On The internet Than Howards Morons Attempted To Impose. Do What You Were Voted Into Power By Most Honest Working Folk Who Wouldnt Know what a Url Was If it megabit them.

So Get Of Your Collective thumbs Stop trying to act as our National conscience and do what The Electorate paying you to do

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henry
December 31st, 2008

Haha this filter is stupid, it will probably make more people look for CP just so they can know they've beaten the system.

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Blackbeard
January 2nd, 2009

Hmm,
Is it just me or does anyone see this whole "Australian Firewall" as exactly the same policy as implemented by the Nazi government prior to their takeover of Germany, Stalin and Mao before their power grabs, Ho chi Min before his grab for Vietnam, the heads of the Kymer Rouge before their attempts to stop folks from having any option to their own opinions.
This Governments policy is nothing short of an attempt to control information and thereby an indoctrinate the populace of Australia. The coverstory that this is to stop porn of violence of the exploitation of children is nothing more than a smokescreen. Australia already has law enforcement agencies that monitor illegal activity, so why do we need more. Simple we dont. But this government NEEDS an excuse to expand it powers and so this is it.
This MAY sound like a conspiracy theory to some, if you dont want to believe me .....just wait and then you will.
Me personally I'm leaving asap. Before they decide to find a way to shut the borders, which was the next logical step that Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea and others took. So cya all and the last one out dont forget to turn offthe lights.

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yeah about time
January 2nd, 2009

It is about time someone did something about the internet.You had your chance you blew it.instead of letting smut and cp take it over you should have doen something about it.
The real reason why the filtering is in place is because something had to be done to stamp out the crap that is out there.
This freedom of speech is fine but when it abuses kids that is when it was allowed to go to far.
Really you all just have yourselves to blame.

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Koz
January 4th, 2009

This is more an issue of denying our freedom and right of accessing information rather than if this is technically feasible or not.

Who will take on the role in defining what is "appropriate" or "illegal" content for an entire nation. The AFP?

This is just absurd in a democracy! Censorship is an instrument used by totalitarian regimes to control the free flow of information in order to manipulate public opinion.

Accessing information is not a crime. Commiting an act is, and deserves prosecution under the law.

I find the whole argument about the technical aspects of this project totally irrelevent, this is not the argument. The argument is that this is an assault on our freedom and rights as free citizens of a democratic society and is against the principles of The Human Rights charter.

What a joke...

Keep fighting against this please!




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Aaron Tolmaci
January 6th, 2009

Instead of stuffing up everyone's internet why not provide another ISP with all this stuff done to it. Then if parent's give a shit about what kids see on the internet they can join up with that. If this gets through then it will virtually be the demise of the internet.

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Mr Han
January 6th, 2009

Aaron, some of what you say is brilliant. we can have the one free-flowing net and another controlled. if there can be one, there can be two. cost a bit but itd be worth it. well said in the first sentence.

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Mr Han
January 7th, 2009

Following on, when you look at the world and the one internet, you have a country like China restricting it, you have a country like Thailand restricting it...in fact all countries tend to try to restrict stuff to do with bomb making, paedophilia etc, whatever the current evil is...so eventually we will end up with quite a few internets. people have free access, only if they want, to the universal free filthy feed and then there are other internets, $10 a year for clean feed... $15 for virus-free...etc, so after awhile the choices are there for all. Imagine Saudi internet right now. Imagine Israel internet right now. Jesus. let's give real choices by having new sources.

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honest john
January 7th, 2009

mr han
welcome back
seasons greetings
HJ

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little_green_chicken
January 7th, 2009

I would like to know just what the hell is going on in our government...Spending $128 million on a completely useless, universally unpopular, democratically offensive filter, while at the same time, proposing to spend $4billion on improving broadband services.......hahahahaha seriously? i think we all know that if our highest level of governmental organization is acting in such a retarded, stubborn and ignorant manner, then we DEFINITELY should be spending that money on technological education. Also, has nobody considered that $128 million dollars would make life very difficult for child pornography rings, if given to police. Instead of simply blocking the sites, why not try catching some of these people, and actually helping some children?

This filter will make our children (and many adults) more ignorant and narrow minded. Australians are completely opposed to it, so why is the trial happening? The technologically educated have to be the ones to think of the children and the kind of people and world we want to live in. Certainly not the kind of place where adults are never adults and cannot make decisions or think for themselves without big brother...or a douchebag Christian psycho fundamentalist Stephen Conroy telling us which information we can view. When an issue is being dealt with by someone who has no expertise (and clearly no mind for evidence processing) in his field, the solution is simple...This man is a dangerous fool and should be fired!

He does not represent us.

I am DEFINITELY voting Labor out next election...guaranteed.

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phildeerhound
January 7th, 2009

The cheapest solution would simply be for the Government to establish a new sanitised Search Engine

Anyone wishing to have a highly censored Internet access could simply lock out Google, Yahoo, Clusty etc from a separate partition accessed by their children - or if they so choose from the entire computer. This search engine could be the one used in schools unless a supervisor was present

Filtering of this kind is different to censorship - I wouldn't not bother because after the age a four most children are more mature than many of the turkeys running this country

nuff said

Get yourself a new net search engine Conroy and see how many people exclusively use it

Then you can take them both to lunch to celebrate your political success.

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I\'m Keeping My Interent
January 7th, 2009

Anybody who believes urging the Australian government to limit filters to home use only is gravely mistaken in believing WE are actually being given a choice here.

This has NOTHING to do with our choice to choose and everything to do with the Australian government controlling what they want you to read and how to think. A nation of informed critical thinkers is the last thing they want.

Fight for your rights! Fight hard and fight loud!

Seriously, stop thinking that they actually want to give you an option here. I'll say it again, "This has NOTHING to do with our choice to choose and everything to do with the Australian government controlling what they want you to read and how to think."

If the Rudd government was to back down, it will be ONLY because of overwhelming public outrage. So keep up the fight!

Tell your family and friends about how the Rudd government is trying to pass this law under the guise of pedophilia so people keep quiet and willingly abnegate their rights. This will certainly lead to greater losses of freedoms - including as we now know Peer to Peer, sites that contain INFORMATION about anything the government deems inappropriate and much more. This net filter implementation scheme is merely a stepping stone to larger and more comprehensive banning of things the government does not want you accessing - no matter how trivial it may appear to you at first.

The Rudd government is acting like the thought police. The way they propose censoring the internet is the equivalent to censoring our thoughts. If they were serious about tackling pedophilia they wouldn't have cut $millions of dollars from the Federal Police budget! So don't believe a word of it!

Plenty of national rallies going on. Get dates from you know where.

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phildeerhound
January 11th, 2009

Contributors to Conroy's own blog - He welcomes your comments - can also use the following shorter address:

www.dbcde.gov.au/digitaleconomyblog

The
line is moderated and censored - but of course one would expect that from Conroy's "Department of Censorship and Controlled Thinking" - albeit one might hope that such a department did not exist under a genuine Labor Government

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Funkylikamonkey
January 12th, 2009

I have attempted to post comments on this blog but my input has somehow disappeared into the abyss. Strange that...

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James
February 4th, 2009

If you look at the note under the box you typed your comment into you'll see why:

"Note: because you are not logged in, your post will be held until reviewed. We aim to review comments once each business day but during busy campaigning periods this is not always possible."

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FreeSpeacH
January 15th, 2009

The Australian people don't want it

The Internet industry says it wont work and will slow us down.

The European Union says its illegal

The liberals and greens oppose it

The Labor party doesn't get it


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Katie8
February 5th, 2009

Whilst I agree that there should be restrictions on extreme violent pornography and pornography that preys on minors/children, I do NOT think that Governments have the right to control what we see or read. What, are we living in Nazi Germany now? Civil freedoms are taken away in little steps such as these! If you are over 21 and wish to view "inoffensive" XXX pornography (heterosexual or homosexual) in the privacy of your own home, then that is your right. The rest of us know where the OFF button is or can ignore websites that provide links to such sites. Under the horrific Howard regime, he did more to reduce civil liberties than any other federal government; enough is enough! I say this to governments: keep out of our bedrooms, keep out of our living rooms and keep out of our private lives!! Stop concentrating on the reduction of our personal freedoms and do the job(s) we elected you to do, ie the responsible, efficient management of our schools, health and transport (hehehe!) - yeah, right! Perhaps your constant interference and comments on these side-issues are strategies to deflect our attention from these major issues?

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Joss Terrell
February 6th, 2009

I think Internet Censorship is great! I can't wait for the day when I don't have to worry about what's showing on my screen. I don't need to 'proceed with caution' just in case something might appear on screen with the family watching, and I definitely can't wait for the day I can let the youngin's roam the internet without my fear of what they could come across in their travels.
I want something in place...however, running all my pages through a filter is NOT the way to go about it.

Having a clean internet may be a dream world but having a filtered internet in the sense that the government is talking about would be nightmare-ish to say the least.
Australia's internet suffers enough from the slow bug...who would dare make it worse?

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Frances
February 7th, 2009

This is not the first time govenments in Australia or in other countries have tried to filter the net; then there were only a small number of users of the Net in Austrlia. It is well over ten years from memory since I joined the first EFA campaign and the proposed filtering legislation failed then for several reasons. My kids were young then and I was a responsible parent I monitered their internet. I also was mature enough to use the internet wisely myself.
I also monitored my Kids televison and gave them good exampl by not watching programs that I would not approve for them. We do not not need governments monitoring us. We need to be mature citizens. No to this version of teh Nanny state.

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dave
February 17th, 2009

its the labour party itself becasue of their ideaology

Labor is more about communism amd they want to control and look after us rather than lettting us make our own choices any i see massive backlash happining not just becuase most arrogant politician since keating i am referring to dickhead conroy of course

i also think the money could be spent on much better thiings such health raods and infrastructre

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Hussein
February 20th, 2009

I'm with 100% protecting our children,but by CENSORING THE NET! I mean let's say that does the job which realistically is impossible because then you have to censor the Tele,Adds,Mags,Movies and everything else i mean alot of movies that are meant for kids but have adult material in some way i mean in a draconian way.Why would they spend so much money in the first place to speed the Net!!!
I mean what i think our children need is supervision with the help of Technology when then go astray to be told or punished in a human way ofcourse and depending on the age and most importantly we need real grown ups and not just people that look like grown ups when they have so much learning to do themselves.I think one of the questions that we need to ask ourselves is why are our kids growing up so fast! Is it becasue of marketing companies is one example;
Plus other countries have proven that you cannot really do anything about stopping websites and I think that will make people who are not interested in the first place to become interested by trying to go around the governments censorship.I think what we need is to strengthen our morales as a society and it all starts at a young age.I also think that kids need to be treated differently than lets say 20/30 years ago.We need to talk to them more be more honest because kids know alot more than some grown ups on certain stuff we try to hide from them and that makes them more curious to get information from somewhere else and thats when we seriously go wrong and tend to regret later.

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Pete
February 20th, 2009

Censorship leads to ludicrous outcomes - an Australian Government website for job seekers refused to accept the word "Commonwealth" - I assume this being a response to a vigorous defence of "Federalism". End-user control is always going to be better than a one-size-fits-all approach (unless a political motive is the prime motivation - ask PRC or Myanmar residents how successful this can be ).

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Robbo107
February 20th, 2009

It's nothing to do with pornography: that's just an excuse to stop citizens/customers from looking up information that would be embarrassing for the Government/stakeholders_in_Corporation_Australia. It will be much easier for any Deputy-Dog government to help out with Globalisation if the people cannot use the Net to look up things like chemtrails, HAARP & The Brigalow Corporation - to find out what is going on behind the scenes. Will NEXUS Magazine and New Dawn be censored next - for "pornography reasons, of course? After that, to stop the free flow of information, the mails are likely to be censored next! R.

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Andres MIramontes
February 21st, 2009

How about creating a simple signature for people to download and use on their email messages to spread the message

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BENJI
March 16th, 2009

its like berlin wall just on the net!!!
jeeezz u might aswell call australia a COMMUNIST country with this "CYBER SAFTY" in plase

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BENJI
March 16th, 2009

We shouldnt be spending money on the internet at this time, when the world is going into ressetion. Spend it on something use full for the people of asutralia :P

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BENJI
March 16th, 2009

Hehehe im only 16 ^.^

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Gerald Marbig
March 20th, 2009

Down with censorship. Child porn is unacceptable but it is not rife and mass-media is fixated upon it which just advertises the filth. Opt-in may be good, but policing all communication is taking away the peoples voices and putting all choice and expression in the hands of shallow right-wing bigots who are blindly and obstinately attached to some creed or opinion and intolerant toward others who don't share their blinkered world-view.

As Jacobs says above, parental discretion is where it is at. If you've got a problem with what children are raised on how about raising your children yourself? The world is spectrum of "content", educate don't suppress.

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Naval
March 20th, 2009

Our phones can be tapped. Our mobiles can be listened to. The police can search our houses when you are absent without a warrant. Extreme racism with the intervention. To name but a few. Now the censorship of the internet, the ONLY freedom we still have. I lived for 5 years under the Nazis, what is the difference now! from both sides of the so called government. Thank you Get Up for trying to stop this dictatorship, you have my full support.

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Shane
March 20th, 2009

It is interesting - we comdenmed Chine for during the olympics when they cencired the internet and we continue to comdenm them for not being pro free speech etc & our government do this to other countries yet here we are with the same government acting in their own interest doing exactly this, removing the freedom of people to access information or to voice their opinion and using hiding it behind the vale of protection of children from porn. I am fully surportive of protecting our children from people who would prey on them for this however we need to be aware of the alteriior motives of governments and we need to take some responsability as parents to educate our children. Our governments both past and present have passed some very scary laws in the last few year and we need to let them know as the voting public that it is not in the general publics best interest and stand up to these back door tacticks

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Melinda Gregory
March 21st, 2009

This is a joke, and "Senator Conroy" you are living in the clouds if you think is is wise spending of tax payers money. These funds could be spent other ways to help "prevent" children from seeing bad content.

Its disgraceful... I'm a shamed and I'm upset....

I'm sure that "most" parents are capable of controlling the information via very effective PC based commercial available filter software.

I have sent a letter to my local Minister and I will continue to make sure that I, my Husband, friends, and family continue to spread the word.

You proposal is flawed and will do nothing to stop people from accessing bad content. We have more important issues in Australia right now to be focusing on this Bullsh#t

Ohh I have an idea "Education" Mr Conroy

Rant finished...... but no over!

Melinda Gregory
Perth

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KG
March 21st, 2009

Have you seen this?


Australia's Vast, Scattershot Censorship Blacklist Revealed
Posted by timothy on Thursday March 19, @10:59PM

"Australia's secretive Internet filter blacklist held by its communications watchdog has been leaked, revealing the government has understated the amount of banned Web pages by more than 1000. Multiple legitimate businesses and Web sites have been banned including two bus companies, online poker sites, multiple Wikipedia entries, Google and Yahoo group pages, a dental surgery and a tour operator. Andrew Twaits, CEO of Betfair, a billion-dollar business blocked by the blacklist, was furious the government has potentially annexed tens of millions of dollars in revenue after the Betfair.com gambling site was blacklisted. The blacklists were reportedly leaked by a Web filter operator to wikileaks which has published the full list of banned URLs. Outraged privacy advocates say the government has effectively lied about the amount of URLs included in the blacklists, totalling more than 2300, and the type of content which it would ban. The leak follows a series attacks on the watchdog in which irate users successfully lobbied for web sites to be banned, only to be threatened with an $11,000 fine for publishing the link contained in the PR response. It was also revealed the watchdog can ban Web sites at a whim, with no accountability."

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archie
March 21st, 2009

I shall be posting the following on my own blog on Monday. (archiearchive.wordpress.com)

Friends, Aussies, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Internet, not to praise him.

The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Internet. The noble Conroy
Hath told you Internet was bad for our kids:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Internet answer'd it.

Here, under leave of Conroy and the rest--
For Conroy is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men--
Come I to speak in Internet's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Conroy says he was evil to our children;
And Conroy is an honourable man.

He hath brought many ideas home to Australia
Whose knowledge and enterprise did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Internet seem evil?
When that the poor have cried, Internet hath wept:
Evil should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Conroy says he was evil;
And Conroy is an honourable man.

You all did see that on the Internet
We all grew in our knowledge of the world,
And we gained many friendships: was this evil?
Yet Conroy says he was evil;
And, sure, he is an honourable man.

I speak not to disprove what Conroy spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;

My heart is in the coffin there with Internet,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

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hfinger
March 23rd, 2009

I can drive a car on my own. I can choose my own television channels on my own. Let me opt into the Internet filtering scheme if I feel that I can't decide what Internet access I want.

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SM
March 23rd, 2009

I'm interested in the dilemma goivernment sees itself as facing... Parents want a safe world for their kids and many see it as government's role to provide it. Those who say that this is a government's role and believe government can do this just don't understand the nature of the internet. Citizens, especially parents, will have to get more knowledgeable and better at working at the internet, if they are to be responsible citizens & parents. (Bit like they all had to learn how to drive when cars became common!)Governments cannot deliver a safe internet on their own, and if they don't have the courage to state this, then one can only wonder about their motives in pretending they can deliver what they cannot. Personally I reckon that even good governments are tempted by the power to control their populations, and citizens would do well to not give over any power to their governments that they cannot monitor in a transarent manner. Manifestly such monitoring will not be possible in relation to the internet. No good will come of it, and we need to clear about that ... and protest while we still can. The internet is too important a resource to become a government tool.

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Pete
March 25th, 2009

I can't believe the foolishness of the ISPs still intending to trial this rubbish.

Perhaps you could target the users of those ISPs, and have them threaten to switch ISPs if they continue to participate in the trial.

The remaining ones are all pretty small players, and the threat of losing a significant proportion of their customer base will quickly focus their attention on whether or not they want to be involved.

No participating ISPs = No Trial

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kanine
July 5th, 2009

"I can't believe the foolishness of the ISPs still intending to trial this rubbish.

Perhaps you could target the users of those ISPs, and have them threaten to switch ISPs if they continue to participate in the trial.

The remaining ones are all pretty small players, and the threat of losing a significant proportion of their customer base will quickly focus their attention on whether or not they want to be involved.

No participating ISPs = No Trial"



OK, just to illuminate this one. I also had a very similar reaction, but then on looking for an alternate ISP, I started asking questions of potential alternatives, and the feedback I was getting from those ISPs involved in the trial was fairly consistent.

Most of those ISPs who signed on to the trial were doing so to prove once and for all what a disaster the concept was, and why it wouldn't work. It's all fine and dandy to throw dry speculation out there, but people need real facts and figures to win this one. When customers paying good money for serious download limits start taking their business to another ISP, money also starts to talk.

It has also served to bring the issue to the public eye. How many ppl even knew about the scheme until sites started to become "unavailable"?? - and how many would have been simply too appathetic to do anything about it?? As soon as things became visible, all of a sudden it lit a fire under many people's backsides... exactly what the averasge ISP KNEW would happen.

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Phantom
March 27th, 2009

In a supposedly free world where we castigate the actions of countries such as Iran and Afghanistan, how is it appropriate that the Federal government get involved in this flawed project. Let the laws of the land stand strong rather than have the government decide what we can and cannot see before we have even clicked on it.

If people are into child porn they should be prosecuted but where artists take photos those sites should not immediately be banned!!

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marty
March 27th, 2009

I note Senator Conroy has now openly admitted that his proposed blacklist is and always will be secret, as by his own admission publishing it would defeat the purpose.

Therefore it is clear his intention is to introduce a punitive regime based on the decisions of a unelected committee of non-judicial 'experts', which is subject to no appeal.

Senator Conroy says he just wants 'a trial' to see if the technology works.

I agree he should get a trial, in the High Court to block his blatant attempt to strip Australian Citizens of their constitutional rights.

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me
April 7th, 2009

The government announced today that the national broadband network is going to be government run. Will this give them them the perfect vehicle to put in place whatever censorship they want?

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Ali
April 23rd, 2009

Are we becoming a communist country? With government imposing these restrictions it seems it is becoming one faster than we think. What happened to our freedom???

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Angelicus
April 26th, 2009

The Goverment wants to protect us against Paedophiles?

When I moved to Melbourne when I was young, I soon found out that football was not the national sport, but Paedophilia was.

I soon learnt to run fast, avoid dead end streets and shitty looking guys. Most just offered money, but I refused, many poor children did not.

When brothels were illegal, it was not uncommon for poor 12 to 14 year old boys and girls to end up as sex workers.

Melbournians have the developed cultural practice not to see what they do not want to see. Someone elses child being raped, is none of their business.

Despite of what I know, the Goverment is as trust worthy as a Paedophile in this matter.

All Goverments represent minority views. Goverments want the populace to be ignorant of reality.
We are in an age when Universitys no longer educate, its not uncommon someone with 3 degrees knows little of the world.

Australia has never been a country of free speech.
Its allways been free to say nothing or when you do say something, your head has to up your ass.
Its amazing how well the Goverments and other groups are spying on the individual.

As Australia is about to go into another major war, it does not want us in the know.

The Goverment can not tell a Mother her son is a hero, when she just seen on the wwww, what her son has done to some babies with his machine gun.

As you are about to get raped, get comfortable

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Mulder
April 27th, 2009

All I can say is that , parents should take responsibility for what their children look at on the internet . There are a number of programs that can stop certain content being able to be viewed . They are easy to use and are effective . It is not anyones right to tell me or any of my friends (whom are responsible tax paying people) what I can or cannot look at on the net or what games I can or cannot play on the net .

Now , we are living in a free country , we are not under a communistic flag . We have the right to choose for ourselves what we want to look at and do on the internet.

If this Filter is brought to pass , this will open up a bag of worms for the government (and not only Labour, if liberal gets in next election, think of what they will do),they will have the right to be almost 1984ish and proclaim what is good and what is bad . Just think about that ..

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Kevin Rennie
May 2nd, 2009

Australia's Tangled Censorship Web: video of New Matilda forum in Melbourne 27 April 2009

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Howling Wind
May 13th, 2009

"il ne marche pas!"

Latest news from France on the BBC newsline might alarm or amuse.

"A controversial French bill which will disconnect people caught downloading content illegally three times has been given final approval.

The legislation, backed by President Nicolas Sarkozy, was surprisingly voted down by the Assembly last month. The bill sets a tough global precedent in cracking down on internet piracy, and is being closely watched by other governments as a potential deterrent. The global music industry has been calling for tougher anti-piracy laws.

The Creation and Internet bill was passed by a vote of 296 to 233 by the lower house on Tuesday and has now been given final approval by the Senate. Opposition Socialist and Communist senators did not take part in the vote on the bill, which was passed by 189 votes to 14.

The new legislation operates under a three-stage system. A new state agency would first send illegal file-sharers a warning e-mail, then a letter, and finally cut off their connection for a year if they were caught a third time. It has been backed by both the film and record industries.

But some consumer groups have warned that the wrong people might be punished, should hackers hijack their computers' identity, and that the scheme amounted to state surveillance.

The socialist parliamentarian Patrick Bloche said the bill was "dangerous, useless, inefficient, and very risky for us citizens".
John Kennedy, chairman of the IFPI, which represents the global music industry, has described the bill as "an effective and proportionate way of tackling online copyright infringement and migrating users to the wide variety of legal music services in France".

But there is hope for those of us who know and love France

Many years ago I took my young son there. He asked what French he would need to get by in France

I told him he would only need "il ne marche pas". He found that hard to believe but wrote it out and learnt it.

We arrived in Paris at four oclock in the afternoon. Three automatic telling machines outside three different banks failed to operate, the coin in the slot superloo toilet malfunctioned and refused to open. The Metro wasn't working and when we got to the Eiffel Tower it was on strike

Each time my son proudly confronted passers by - pointed to the offending item - and recited the vital phrase, to their smiles and amusement. He used it dozens of times on a three day visit to Paris

So if your broadband contact with France goes bung, and indeed there whole system falls down a black hole - DON'T Panic

Just remember - It's France - "il ne marche pas"

Nothing has since Napoleon, shortly after whose demise the old French joke was first invented "How do you defend Paris? - I don't know, nobody's ever tried"

No doubt the would-be regulators will shortly find out what deGaulle meant when he said "how can you govern a country in which there are 246 kinds of cheese?"

Vive la France!





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Tess LaCoil
May 23rd, 2009

Would you look at that, it's already begun. Thank you, iPrimus for blocking animations which contain mild sexual references.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5919/internetl.jpg

This
block warning was seen after a friend linked me to an animation called "The Life Of A Jar". It's not pornographic by nature, just has sexual implications. There are certinally no children involved, and no violence.

So thank you, Rudd, for trying so hard to appease the moralistic lobbyists that you hamstring freedom of speech in the process. Next you'll be handing over the security of Parliament House to a foreign power for a day to appease them as well. That'd be nostalgic, would it not?

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AlanC
June 26th, 2009

I hold strongly to the view that it is a parent's responsibility to protect their children from the dangers of life ...including those dangers associated with using the Internet.

Protecting your children is NOT a responsibility that Australian's should abandon to a government.

Classification and Censorship are draconian and ineffective ...verging on being totalitarian

If Rudd and Conroy have to spend our taxes on something ...spend it on the Australian Federal Police ...let them get on with the job of locating the real criminals ...LEAVE THE REST OF US ALONE

Perhaps grandpa was right ...the Labour Party is full of cummunists

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Censored Mature Gamer
June 26th, 2009

The government is now trying to block sites that pertain to video games not rated MA15+ or below!

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24215

Not
only won't the government create an R or 18+ rating for games, but now they are blocking access to sites about them, and even possibly downloading 'refused classification' games. ie. downloading through steam!

A great comment on the linked article:

"Once more, Australia follows in England's footsteps towards totalitarianism. Aussies, why do you keep electing people who hold you in such deep contempt? You do realize that political content filtering is next, don't you...

Are you free citizens whose government obeys YOU, or are you subjects under the thumb of rulers like Conroy? What happened to you that you allow yourself to be treated like this?"

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n3o
July 2nd, 2009

This is just going over the top know the internet censorship is going to effect online games to. I have had to much of this we need to do some much more!!

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Kieran O\\\'Rourke
July 9th, 2009

Their are a few more orgs around the place that are trying to close this all down so please join the others in the fight too. Here are two on Facebook.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Canberra-Australia/MP-Stephen-Conroy-needs-to-be-sacked/97953476133?ref=ts

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=35119201737&ref=ts

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Mirza Jamal
July 10th, 2009

Internet censorship is like replacing parents job of being there with THEIR children.

Australia Govt like other govts know most parents can take short cut and leave kids (even 15-16 yo) with internet to babysit while parents have got excessive mortgage.

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Gordon
July 10th, 2009

We are born to die, and it is the manner of that dying, and of the living which precedes it, which dignifies us as free humans--or debases us as captive slaves. I need no protection which curtails my dignity.

Benjamin Franklin wrote: "They that can give up Essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

I must ask the question: Is this REALLY a democracy we live in? Or the most sophisticated autocracy the world has ever seen?

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Boris Pogoriller
July 10th, 2009

Rather than filtering content en masse, should not responsible use of this resource be promoted?

It is only in the last 10 years that the internet traffic speed attracted 9 out of 10 people to the daily use of the internet.

The educations system, from pre school to university studies has so little to offer by way of introducing young users to the internet

The internet changes at a rate that vastly overtakes the rate at which schools and universities adapt to the new content and apps

Therefore the majority of net users are self taught. It will be a generation later when the net becomes more reliable and less of a 'novelty' that ordinary unsophisticated users will be able to navigate it with comfort

The net is man made. Filtering existing content does nothing except presenting a challenge to the authors of the content as to how to bypass the filters and get the message across. It does nothing towards removing the underlying reasons for the creation of the content, whatever that content may be.

Federal Government has only defined powers in the Constitution. Amongst these is the power to exact taxes and the power to legislate for the protection of the public. In both instances there is an implied onus on the Government to justify allocation of funding to the filtering program.

There is also an obvious lack of transparency in the decision, made at the highest administrative level, as to which content is declared forbidden. There is also an unjustified expenditure of taxpayers money. At a time when the budget is in its biggest deficit since Labor's last deficit.

A parliamentary inquiry must be formed before the government apply the filtering and enshrine it in legislation.



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zhuk
July 14th, 2009

"The State must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the Government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."

- Adolf Hitler

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Mother of Seven Little Australians
August 8th, 2009

Good Parenting will protect our children not sensoring.

OMG, I cannot even fathom this, I had no idea the Government was going to sensure our internet, this is outrageous, please people do not let this happen.

I worked at a DECS site and it was near impossible to get normal webpages when I was a uniform shop manager as the netblock program DECS used blocked legitimate sites continuously.

OMG, help us GET UP help us maintain our right to freedom of the internet.

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hudson684
September 10th, 2009

http://88.80.16.63/leak/acma-secret-blacklist-aug-2008.txt
There's the current black list

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wickard
September 13th, 2009

Govt cant even protect its own web page let alone try protect the whole entire web !! Its simple kevin lay off your doing the wrong thing !! We dont want your blanket of sinence. Ive learnt so much on the internet some subjects maybe illegal but i dont use this knowledge for illegal purposes rather i use it to build my knowledge and have a better understanding of my world i live in ! I think the big question is " What is it you dont want us to see ? " You see there are 2 type of people in this world and always will be ones that use knowledge and technology for good and great reasons !! And there are bad people who use this knowledge and technology to impower them selfs and to control others !!! Kevin why do you want to empower yourself control us ? Heres another fact i vote and i dont like it !! what has happened to the power of my vote Kevin !! Hello Kevin can you hear me ?? Are you listening.

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Socrates
September 15th, 2009

There is NO place for this sort of censorship in a free country. Already are freedoms are steadily being stolen.
Australia si rapidly becoming, in practice a corporate polce state like Hitler's Germany, Fascist Italy, or even the United States under George Bush jr. Even the present banned sites are secret and so are the decisions that put them there. Thre should be much more openness in this process. We have a right to know, and protes if necessary.

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James B
September 23rd, 2009

Facts up for grabs - is manipulation of the masses really democracy?

The Australian Communications and Media Authority’s initial report actually shows one of the products tested reduced speed by less than 2%. Will it effectively block sites anyway? Yes (94% of them). Will it block too much e.g. health sites? No (3% of sites tested). Freedom of speech may be used as a war cry to gather the troops, but has nothing to do with the battle. Our society is haemorrhaging with problems due to wrong views held on sex and sexuality. This is a tool that will effectively deal with a major contributor cheaply (both financially and in performance). This tool is more important to society than the seatbelt in our cars: its cheaper and combating a far bigger problem. Children (and men) use child abuse, rape and other highly illegal and destructive sites and grow up with a very wrong view of sexuality and the rights of women (and men). The International Violence Against Women Survey: the Australian Component 2003 reported that over half (57%) of women had been physically or sexually abused. We can’t afford to ignore this problem any longer – it’s our lives; our women & our boys that sexually graphic & explicit material is destroying!

Will you do the research to look into the actual facts instead of propagating misinformed rumours lies that serve a hidden agenda?

See http://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/_assets/main/lib310554/isp-level_internet_content_filtering_trial-report.pdf
See http://www.aifs.gov.au/acssa/statistics.html

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Matt Emery
December 16th, 2009

"Freedom of speech may be used as a war cry to gather the troops, but has nothing to do with the battle."

Wrong, it has everything to do with the battle. Let me spell it for you you James;

The government are proposing to censor the internet without disclosing what they are censoring.

You obviously have a bias going on as you believe that censorship of this type will address a problem you are passionate about. I get it... let's "save the children", and I agree in principle, but what I don't get is the way the government are going about it i.e. secretive censorship. The internet belongs to the people, information belongs to the people; therefore, people should get a say on this legislation.

If you grant unlimited control to a small group of people over such vast amounts of information, how long before they "accidentally" include legal sites on the blacklist. And who decides the more granular issues of what's right or wrong? i.e. chemical compounds, abortion, euthanasia, public dissent... the list goes on. Who decides what is right or wrong here? You? Me? Neither should, it's a decision by the people, for the people.

I have read the fact James. But it seems that you actually don't care about the facts because your agenda has been supported. Isn't that somewhat... selfish?

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honest john
September 23rd, 2009

James B
good to get some sanity into the debate.
most are too busy downloading porn to check out the facts.
im sick of being confronted by deviates in our community.
australia seems to have become a refuge for international pedophiles.
many coming in via the UK sewer pipe.
no checks are done on UK migrants.
a simple name change is suffice.
checkout you local telecentre were most of them reside usually doing the maintenance on a volunteer basis.
country towns are infested with them.

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Robert D Huxley
September 23rd, 2009

Hi ,
I applaud CetUP for their efforts in trying to protect us from poor Govt. and manipulation by the corporates.

For the life of me I cant understand why anyone would want to allow gross violence or physical and sexual abuse particularlly of children, to be a part of our internet fare?

Does the Get up team see it as art ? or maybe a 'freedom' we should all indulge in to become better people.

I do agree with some forms of censorship. How it can be effective I dont know. Helping a little bit is better than not helping at all.

All the best
Bob

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Only Freedom
September 23rd, 2009

It appears that Kevin Rudd's grasp of mandarin and his ensuing dealings with heads of state from Communist China, have imbued him with visions of grandeur far surpassing his mandate from the Australian population.
Never forget the lessons of History.
Never forget how far one A.Hitler was able to travel from the launching of one small lie.
And never forget the slaughter that was carried out at Tiananmen Square by a Communist regime against its own citizens who were merely trying to achieve what we here already can!
Never forget that Politicians are the historically proved architects of War and death, not Peace and Harmony.
and please, never forget that old adage.. You don't know what you had until it was gone!!

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Only Freedom
September 24th, 2009

Did prohibition stop alcohol? No! And State censorship is not going to stop kiddie porn.
It may regulate their market somewhat, but will never stop it.
It will just go back underground, and because it is harder to get it will become more valuable which in turn will bring even more ungodly creatures into the racket and all children will be much more threatened.
Society needs to heal itself from the ground up. We don't need politicians. We need better social ethics and codes of conduct that begin at the alter and are instilled all the way through the Parenting/Childhood phase.
But since so much child sexual abuse is bourne from within the Church itself, and is indulged in by Politicians and Judges what hope? I believe this is just a pretext by Conroy and others to hide an even bigger agenda.
Want to clean up society, then rid it of Hollywood and TV Porn of all persuasions, which is doing far more to undermine decent society.
After all, these are the type who are profiting so hugely and are largely behind the push because they are losing some of their dirty profits.
-----

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James Chapman
September 25th, 2009

http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2009/05/australias-impotent-censors/

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\"ongoingly\"
September 29th, 2009

Sen Conroy is reported as saying Getup's campaign is “ongoingly misleading the Australian public about the government’s intentions.” - Coming from Sen Conroy, master of ongoingly misleading statements, that would have to be a back-handed compliment of the highest order.

As one who made a modest contribution to the campaign, let me reassure Getup that I continue to support the necessity of promoting democracy and political accountability in this country.

Obviously the petition has failed to influence Sen Conroy - yet it has made public his hubris and disdain for the democratic process. Keep up the good work Getup.

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Only Freedom
September 29th, 2009

“ongoingly misleading the Australian public about the government’s intentions.”

Herein lies the nexus of the problem..
People these days are so bone lazy, brain dead and socially brain washed that they equate Mis-leadership
as Leadership.
Its a bit like the US,
Accuse and Kill everyone before ever accepting the painfull pill called Truth?

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HW
October 2nd, 2009

Conroy is a particularly sad example of a Labor politician who hasn't got a clue what Labour parties are for and why they were founded

They were certainly not created by working people to act as wet nurses, nannies, and governesses for their children. Whilst they have a responsibility to provide for child care and health - as for all citizens - and to similarly provide for education, that role is not one that includes governmentally restricting the peoples access to the real world - that which is good and that which is bad.

As Marshall McLuhan said, it's the medium itself that is the message. The contours and architecture of the internet are part of the material world we live in. If we restrict access to world communications, then we take away a critical part of our awareness and consciousness. How then - not knowing clearly what "is" - indeed having a censored perspective - can we clearly envisage that which should "be"

This is really where Conroy and his like in Western Labour parties have "lost the plot". They are already viewing the world through a "consciousness" filter - and again an again they get it wrong - both in terms again of what "is" and what should "be"

People like Conroy have turned Labour politics into a petty bourgeois political block under the patriarchal control of Corporate capitalism and the middle class, and under the philosophical and ideological control of a decaying nonconformist and low Anglican Christianity tinged a little with "Bless me Father I have sinned" catholicism.

Gone is the recognition of class division, of privilege, of dispossession and disadvantage and even of the ideological and spiritual psychic distortion and alienation that class dominated society creates in order to control. Conroy's is a world of "working together" of "reaching consensus" and of universal social and political mores". This is the kind of mentality that saw "benevolence" in fascism and the great dictators of Spain, Italy, Germany, Russia, and of China even as father figures and seeks to emulate that delusionally perceived benevolence.

The British Labour party made this same error some 12 years ago. swept in to power on a landslide of disgust for the Thatcher years of self centred market Capitalism, that impoverished millions and irrepairably damaged Britain, it squandered its mandate and betrayed its electorate. The social changes that people demanded - to housing, education, health, to infrastructure in cities and to the very class structure and division of wealth, never took place

Instead a British "Labour" Government, pandering to the American Alliance with a foreign policy dictated from beyond its borders, sent the children of its electors to die once again in battles they barely understood. Economically far from there being reform the Labour Government actively took money from the people to prop up the collapsing economy of the rich.

The Government took over the role of the foreman - the old song "The peoples flag is brightest red, stained with the blood our fathers bled" really did become "The working class can kiss my arse, I've got the foreman's job at last". And there these usurpers of the greatest social movement in thousands of years of civilisation sit, at banquets, supping soup with the rich, the corporate leaders, the aristocracy, and those intent on destroying workers movements.

The real tragedy of Conroy is that he is symptomatic of an Australian Labour (sic) Party following the same path. The Labor Party here has become obsessed with, and dominated by ,petty middle class social and religious attitudes and standards, as if these alone would keep them in power. And to pander to these attitudes, and that false mandate that it deludes itself it can perceive, it throws out its social programme

Where is the public housing, the state run enterprises to provide jobs, training, and work experience and to provide job security, Where are the state scholarships to private schools, where is the secularisation of education - a major platform of social democracy worldwide? We have heard the complaints, but where are the hospitals , health services, emergency services? Where is the urban and rural infrastructure - the libraries? Dare I even ask - where are the inroads into the social structure of class distinction?

And in communications where is the freeing up of the airwaves from the dominance of Corporations - where is the free market of broadcast ideas? What we have in Conroy is a "taking away" not a "giving to"

Kevin Rudd mate, they've lost it. Effectively in New South Wales we have lost our Labour(sic) party to a developers clique. We have lost the Rule of Law and of Constitution to a miasma of conflicting policy that circumvents legal process. The Federal ALP has the "Conroys" of the ALP - the NSW State ALP has the "Sartors" of the ALP - and in every state is the same

Kevin get back to what Labor should be doing. Get back to the social programmes, the economic reforms, the provision of jobs and services, the educating of the populace - the rescue of the poor and dispossessed of whatever ethnicity - the provision of housing and the winding back of one of the world's most vicious and entrenched systems of political authoritarianism and economic class dominance. Restore the trade union basis of working peoples political representation

That is what being a Labour man is about. Nothing less - and no diversion into paternalism such as that promoted by Conroy and his like

Purge the ALP of this nonsense once and for all- or go the way - in a few years - of the British Labour Party - the party that sold out a mandate given to it by the greatest landslide in recent British political history.





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LaurenceMrMiss
October 12th, 2009

I don't think they have thught about how many porn stars they will be putting out of work. How sad. Haha. Kevin Rudd can go to a strip club but not RedTube ? We should expect that he as a paid membership to the site (If you can even do that?) Its pathetic, this is 2009, not 1809.

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jess
October 16th, 2009

Coming from a students point of view they expect us to learn at school and how can we do this when they are wanting to block inappropriate websites which are needed for our research and studies, espically if they are considering on blocking websites that are related to anorexia!
Is the government going to cut out nutrition and health classes in schools then?

Protecting young children is definately a good idea BUT how are the government going to find criminals like pedophiles and illegal substance uses/dealers if they block websites relating to them. They are just making their job harder. Also it isn't so much stranger danger these days its more like relative danger.

Slowing down the internet doesn't really bother me much, but the whole idea of parents trusting their own children has definately been thrown out the window.

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phalcon26
December 15th, 2009

What a draconian concept throttling the internet to self serving politicians and lobby groups who deign to tell us what we can and can't look up. How dare they, are Australians so inept at raising their own children that the nanny state mentality pervades the last bastion of free speech, a forum that was supposed to be without borders. Once again the knee jerk executive arm of Australian legislation swings into claim more tax payer money keeping lawyers, politicians and civil servants at the trough. Communist China screens their internet, China kills dissenting voices, how charming to see Australia starting on this slippery slope. Anyone offered any free courses on how parents can limit their own childrens internet use.

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Cameron
December 15th, 2009

I support all those of like mind here who detest being told by our government what they can and cant view on the Internet. I don't need any politician to tell me whats appropriate and what isn't, i have no objection to websites which depict sexual or physical violence on the Internet which are created in a premeditated way as some perverse form of entertainment ,being prosecuted to full the extent of the law. However real images and video of the World around us eg War, Conflict,anything of an erotic sexual nature (Over the age of 18) etc, should always be available to Adults who wish to view it, why because people have a right to find out the truth of whats going on in this World people should have a right to express themselves sexually so long as it is consensual and not harming anyone , If censorship is allowed to run its full course by these moral crusaders we wont be able to view anything but a very sanitized interruption of our World.Which suits these moral crusaders just fine because then they can get on and do what ever they like behind closed doors. Say NO to Censorship on the NET

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Mordd
December 15th, 2009

Software to allow connection to the TOR network >> http://aaron552.syte.cc/blog/2009/04/30/tor-windows/

Quote
: "The Onion Router, or tor, is a tool specifically designed to enable secure access to Internet content blocked in oppressive regimes."

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Frank
December 16th, 2009

The endeavours of the government to censor child pornography should not be impeded by your blanket approach to stop any form of censorship.

The reality is that we do not live in China and your fears are extreme and your campaign is poorly thought out. You do not trust the governments’ motives. This is naive.

You should give real support to this effort to stop the exploitation of children and women and the disgusting trade that the internet has facilitated. Are you proposing and viable alternative? Relying on parents to censor what children see is one thing but will this stop the trade in child pornography?

Your organisation really is just an immature protest movement looking for a cause in a largely egalitarian and advanced democracy. There is no demonic and oppressive government here.



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HW
December 17th, 2009

All Conroy's filter will do is put the price of pornography up and "force" pornographers to use more complex encryption.

Prohibition ALWAYS has the same effect - it intensifies the crime and raises the price - American alcohol Prohibition virtually created the organised crime that - alcohol being legally available - created the drug distribution networks

I am NOT advocating the legalisation of child pornography - but I think it is better pursued on a site by site basis - as it quite successfully is at present. Prohibition is a practical strategy issue - it should NEVER be the reflection and consequence of a simple "moral judgement" - that is just begging trouble

Censorship in raising the price intensifies the crime. With so much money becoming available to encrypted networks, child abuse, brutality and even killing of abused children to silence them may well increase

Conroy simply has not done his homework - either that or controlling pornography is not his real agenda - were that the case we should be deeply concerned as to what the real agenda might be.

Raise the profits and drug cartels will inevitably move into the child abuse and porn business. Surely we do not want that to happen - there will be no backpeddling then without TOTAL decriminilisation - and I am not sure people would want THAT at all.

Let sleeping dogs lie. Sometimes it is far safer.

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François Etre etDurer
December 16th, 2009

It is undemocratic for the gov't to put restrictions on personal freedom. Who decides what content is appropriate? Why is this process not transparent? The technical reasons aside last time I looked this was still a democracy. Technically what the gov't is doing is crude and impotent. The idea that a paternalistic gov't knows best is an aborrhent abuse of power and I will not stand silent. I will make sure I disseminate the technics to bypass filtering to as many folk as I can. Even though personally I would like to see less bandwidth being chewed up by meaningless garbage. The gov't doesn't have the moral authority to impose secret standards on its citizens: this demagogic appeal to save the children. The rock-spiders of this world have available alternative means of distribution making this sine qua non for ISP filtering a very big lie with significant effects on individual freedoms and freedom of expression. But then that's the beauty of this arcane Westminster System. Where we have our privileges doled out to us by our betters. When will Australians wake up and see how often they are manipulated? When will you finally throw off the chains of imperialism and begin to think for yourselves. Alas I fear I know better, sorry for not being apathetic I'll let you get back to your beer now.

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Clan Caridwen
December 17th, 2009

Australia already has the worlds most draconic internet.. this is wrong, plain wrong

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richgard19
January 1st, 2010

I understand that the dissemination of the most vile type of pornography occurs Peer to Peer which will not be impacted by the government legislation or technical intrusion. The analogy I was given was the legislation punishes the car owner parked in their driveways while the highway racers continue to escape penalty.

Can any 'blind list' of forbidden sites be trusted, how would that list change with a change of government and at what cost to our freedoms of expression, association etc.

Isn't this a variation of the techniques despots (Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia) use to control the information they want the people to see?

As well intentioned as it may be how safe is the scheme from the potential abuse of power?

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Choices
January 23rd, 2010

Im shocked that a this is seriously being considered.
Yes, families should be able to opt for internet security but it certainly shouldnt be FORCED on ALL Australians.
Last time I checked Australia was still a democracy. A "secret" black list conjours up all sorts of scary connotations of political agendas and potential manipulation on the part of government. This is serious stuff.

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Mark
February 5th, 2010

More anal compulsive pedantic bureaucracy in Australia! Where does it end? If you don't like - don't look, and if you want to protect minors use software on the home computer and monitor the kids! Take some personal responsibilty for parenting rather than sitting back and expecting the government to manage the internet. I'm sick of over-regulation in Australia and useless bureaucrats that have nothing better to do than invent more rules. Leave the internet alone and stop spending public money for brown nose points!

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Shayne
February 11th, 2010

I want to know how the government plans to stop people using programs like Haystack from circumventing internet your filters? If Iran and china can't block sites because of these programs what makes them think Australia's filters will?

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Middle
March 11th, 2010

Where are GetUp! on this issue in 2010, and what happened to the money raised since GetUp! took this on as one of their campaigns all those months ago?

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Alan Ide, NewAustralia Party
March 15th, 2010

If anyone in this blog is "thinking this is a good launching pad for a personal political career" then come on down to the NewAustralia Party!

We need to replace the Lib/Labs - not beg them to change.

GetUp should start supporting alternative parties who can shake things up in the coming election. We have to start putting their $130k+++ salaries under actual threat.

Putting the odd ad on tv won't cut it when the Lib/Labs have the same policy on just about everything.

What parties does GetUp support????????

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Gamer57
April 13th, 2010

Australian's people FREEDOM, Used as a bargaining tool in Parliment. Australian's dont want this filter.
What can we do?

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Technica
April 30th, 2010

There are too many impacts to legitimate internet users, filtering out the offenders and some legitimate sites or data is counter intuitive to policing the offenders. Surely, it is better to discover, identify and prosecute offenders than just to leave them to find other areas to offend in.
Penalties need to be hard enough to hurt the offenders and leave the rest of us to utilise the internet that many are highly dependant on.

In relation to our children, the simple fact is that material is out there in the real world, our responsibility as parents is to educate and protect, I certainly don't excpect the goverment to do my job, I can do this significantly better and in the knowledge that I have done my job well.

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